Shutter shock with small primes

rawr · 03-20-2019, 02:37 PM

I wonder if SS on K-3 vs K-3 II and K-1 vs K-1 II is improved.

Pentax engineers are certainly aware of SS, as they are of mirror bounce (particularly with the K-1), so one would expect to see modifications/tuning of this as bodies are refreshed. And how does the newer KP compare with K-3 II?

FWIW, when I first used Sony NEX mirrorless (NEX-5 and NEX-F3), I was mildly shocked how much the body shook when the shutter was fired. It was a kind of double motion backwards and forwards, and then a very vibrant snap. Things have improved a bit with later Sony's, but you certainly still feel it. I guess that makes me more tolerant of what's going on with K-3/K-1. The Pentax engineers have done a good job taming the shutter, particularly acoustically.

Last edited by rawr; 03-20-2019 at 02:52 PM.

stevebrot · 03-20-2019, 02:49 PM - **1 Like**

My experience following posts on this site is that those who are looking for shutter shock will find it. That does not mean it is a fantasy, only that there may be limits to cancelling the effect of moving mass and the tendency for cameras, lenses, and camera supports to harbor resonance. A short list of potential sources for minor camera movement (both immediate and resonant) include (assuming reasonable time between exposure):

AF action
Shutter button depress
Lens aperture movement on stop-down
First curtain start
First curtain stop
Second curtain start
Load at tension
Ground movement
Air movement (I have heard a tripod hum)

The last two specifically involve tripod-mounted shooting. The third from last is potentially the most troubling.

Steve

(...not going to elaborate...)

BROO · 03-20-2019, 03:15 PM - **1 Like**

Why would't you adjust the aperture and ISO in order to avoid these shutter speeds when using the lenses that are effected by shutter shock?

**BigMackCam** · 03-20-2019, 03:26 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BROO

Why would't you adjust the aperture and ISO in order to avoid these shutter speeds when using the lenses that are effected by shutter shock?

I think the point is not that the problem can't be worked around, but that it exists in the first place and may even have coloured some folks' views of lens performance, when it's really just an unfortunate bi-product of mechnical shutter operation

I agree with @stevebrot above... If you look for it, you'll find it. It's potentially more prevalent than we realise - but most of the time, we don't realise it or, because of our personal tolerances or image reproduction sizes, don't care too much...

**Wingincamera** · 03-20-2019, 03:36 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by stevebrot

My experience following posts on this site is that those who are looking for shutter shock will find it.

Reminds me of the motorcycle forums I read. If someone posts a possible problem, everyone immediately wants to check their bike for a problem they never saw before.

BROO · 03-20-2019, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Wingincamera

Reminds me of the motorcycle forums I read. If someone posts a possible problem, everyone immediately wants to check their bike for a problem they never saw before

Shutter shock is nothing new. Best to know how your camera and lens combination is affected by the shutter speed and then work around it. I think that is what good photographers do?

stevebrot · 03-20-2019, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by BarryE

So here's what I found from multiple tests, using two K-1 s, and using a variety of hand-held techniques/positions. On all of the following lenses I repeated the tests using my normal tripod/MUP/remote set-up as a base - it was completely consistent -no instances of shutter stock were experienced using the tripod.

At face value, one might question some aspect of hand-held technique with lighter kit, since the common denominators are small-light lenses hand-held. This is not a judgement on experience or technique, only an observation. Do you have example photos?

Steve

**BigMackCam** · 03-20-2019, 03:50 PM

Moved to Pentax K-1 forum...

**BigMackCam** · 03-20-2019, 04:06 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BROO

Shutter shock is nothing new. Best to know how your camera and lens combination is affected by the shutter speed and then work around it. I think that is what good photographers do?

Right, and that's exactly what the OP is doing. He's just recently noticed the effect with this particular lens and camera combo (because, let's face it, it doesn't happen with every lens and camera in the same situations) and now he's having to figure out ways to work around it, whilst also wondering if it has bothered anyone else with the same combo...

biz-engineer · 03-20-2019, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by pschlute

Academic I know, but my testing of the shake problem found it to be shutter induced, not mirror. Using the MLU option had zero effect on the shake.

My testing led me to conclude what I wrote here, and so far so good I don't have blur problems anymore. So, maybe some cameras behave differently then mine. Important is that we find ways that suit us the best. What is often mixed up with shutter shock is in fact camera shake more pronounced with small lenses.

BROO · 03-20-2019, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Right, and that's exactly what the OP is doing. He's just recently noticed the effect with this particular lens and camera combo (because, let's face it, it doesn't happen with every lens and camera in the same situations) and now he's having to figure out ways to work around it, whilst also wondering if it has bothered anyone else with the same combo...

Yes I did read the OP.
That's why I suggested adjusting the ISO and aperture for particular combinations of camera and lens. That is what good photographers do. Nothing new here. Potentially every camera/lens combination has its own harmonic frequency sour spot. A good photographer knows their equipment. The OP is correct and doing the right thing but you need to know how your individual camera lens combination works.

StephenHampshire · 03-20-2019, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by BROO

Why would't you adjust the aperture and ISO in order to avoid these shutter speeds when using the lenses that are effected by shutter shock?

Here are a couple of shots typical of my kind of shooting....not really practical to drop shutter speed (subject in motion) and the ISO is high enough s it is (low light) The FA35 and FA43 are my staple low light lenses on the k1!

FA35, 1/100 F2.5 ISO16000

FA43 1/60 F2 ISO 10000

BROO · 03-20-2019, 04:24 PM

A moving subject in the dark and its a bit soft? The last thing I would be doing is blame my equipment!

**BigMackCam** · 03-20-2019, 04:30 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BROO

Yes I did read the OP.
That's why I suggested adjusting the ISO and aperture for particular combinations of camera and lens. That is what good photographers do. Nothing new here. Potentially every camera/lens combination has its own harmonic frequency sour spot. A good photographer knows their equipment. The OP is correct and doing the right thing but you need to know how your individual camera lens combination works.

You keep mentioning what a "good photographer" does or should do, and I guess that's what prompted my last reply, and this one. It might not be your intention, and I may be unique in interpreting this, but it sounds like you're not sure (or questioning) if the OP is a "good photographer". In my view, he's noticed an issue, isolated it, is interested that it's happening with his particular camera and lens combo (because, as I said before, it doesn't happen with all cameras and lenses in the same circumstances), asking if others have experienced it with his specific combo, accepting he will have to adapt, and doing us all a service by relaying his experiences here. All of which strikes me as "good photographer" material in anyone's book - would you agree?

StephenHampshire · 03-20-2019, 04:30 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by BROO

A moving subject in the dark and its a bit soft? The last thing I would be doing is blame my equipment!

I'm not, just pointing out that you can't always easily avoid the risky shutter speeds! The K1 and FA35 is my absolute favourite combination!

03-20-2019, 02:49 PM - 1 Like	#17
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	My experience following posts on this site is that those who are looking for shutter shock will find it. That does not mean it is a fantasy, only that there may be limits to cancelling the effect of moving mass and the tendency for cameras, lenses, and camera supports to harbor resonance. A short list of potential sources for minor camera movement (both immediate and resonant) include (assuming reasonable time between exposure): AF action Shutter button depress Lens aperture movement on stop-down First curtain start First curtain stop Second curtain start Load at tension Ground movement Air movement (I have heard a tripod hum) The last two specifically involve tripod-mounted shooting. The third from last is potentially the most troubling. Steve (...not going to elaborate...)

03-20-2019, 04:14 PM	#25
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by pschlute Academic I know, but my testing of the shake problem found it to be shutter induced, not mirror. Using the MLU option had zero effect on the shake. My testing led me to conclude what I wrote here, and so far so good I don't have blur problems anymore. So, maybe some cameras behave differently then mine. Important is that we find ways that suit us the best. What is often mixed up with shutter shock is in fact camera shake more pronounced with small lenses. Last edited by biz-engineer; 03-20-2019 at 04:27 PM.

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03-20-2019, 02:37 PM	#16
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	I wonder if SS on K-3 vs K-3 II and K-1 vs K-1 II is improved. Pentax engineers are certainly aware of SS, as they are of mirror bounce (particularly with the K-1), so one would expect to see modifications/tuning of this as bodies are refreshed. And how does the newer KP compare with K-3 II? FWIW, when I first used Sony NEX mirrorless (NEX-5 and NEX-F3), I was mildly shocked how much the body shook when the shutter was fired. It was a kind of double motion backwards and forwards, and then a very vibrant snap. Things have improved a bit with later Sony's, but you certainly still feel it. I guess that makes me more tolerant of what's going on with K-3/K-1. The Pentax engineers have done a good job taming the shutter, particularly acoustically. Last edited by rawr; 03-20-2019 at 02:52 PM.

03-20-2019, 03:15 PM - 1 Like	#18
BROO Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 655	Why would't you adjust the aperture and ISO in order to avoid these shutter speeds when using the lenses that are effected by shutter shock?

03-20-2019, 03:26 PM - 1 Like	#19
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by BROO Why would't you adjust the aperture and ISO in order to avoid these shutter speeds when using the lenses that are effected by shutter shock? I think the point is not that the problem can't be worked around, but that it exists in the first place and may even have coloured some folks' views of lens performance, when it's really just an unfortunate bi-product of mechnical shutter operation I agree with @stevebrot above... If you look for it, you'll find it. It's potentially more prevalent than we realise - but most of the time, we don't realise it or, because of our personal tolerances or image reproduction sizes, don't care too much...

03-20-2019, 03:36 PM - 1 Like	#20
Wingincamera Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pine Haven, Wyoming Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,182	Originally posted by stevebrot My experience following posts on this site is that those who are looking for shutter shock will find it. Reminds me of the motorcycle forums I read. If someone posts a possible problem, everyone immediately wants to check their bike for a problem they never saw before.

03-20-2019, 03:45 PM	#21
BROO Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 655	Originally posted by Wingincamera Reminds me of the motorcycle forums I read. If someone posts a possible problem, everyone immediately wants to check their bike for a problem they never saw before Shutter shock is nothing new. Best to know how your camera and lens combination is affected by the shutter speed and then work around it. I think that is what good photographers do?

03-20-2019, 03:47 PM	#22
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by BarryE So here's what I found from multiple tests, using two K-1 s, and using a variety of hand-held techniques/positions. On all of the following lenses I repeated the tests using my normal tripod/MUP/remote set-up as a base - it was completely consistent -no instances of shutter stock were experienced using the tripod. At face value, one might question some aspect of hand-held technique with lighter kit, since the common denominators are small-light lenses hand-held. This is not a judgement on experience or technique, only an observation. Do you have example photos? Steve

03-20-2019, 03:50 PM	#23
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Moved to Pentax K-1 forum...

03-20-2019, 04:06 PM - 1 Like	#24
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by BROO Shutter shock is nothing new. Best to know how your camera and lens combination is affected by the shutter speed and then work around it. I think that is what good photographers do? Right, and that's exactly what the OP is doing. He's just recently noticed the effect with this particular lens and camera combo (because, let's face it, it doesn't happen with every lens and camera in the same situations) and now he's having to figure out ways to work around it, whilst also wondering if it has bothered anyone else with the same combo...

03-20-2019, 04:18 PM	#26
BROO Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 655	Originally posted by BigMackCam Right, and that's exactly what the OP is doing. He's just recently noticed the effect with this particular lens and camera combo (because, let's face it, it doesn't happen with every lens and camera in the same situations) and now he's having to figure out ways to work around it, whilst also wondering if it has bothered anyone else with the same combo... Yes I did read the OP. That's why I suggested adjusting the ISO and aperture for particular combinations of camera and lens. That is what good photographers do. Nothing new here. Potentially every camera/lens combination has its own harmonic frequency sour spot. A good photographer knows their equipment. The OP is correct and doing the right thing but you need to know how your individual camera lens combination works.

03-20-2019, 04:22 PM	#27
StephenHampshire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Winchester Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,523	Originally posted by BROO Why would't you adjust the aperture and ISO in order to avoid these shutter speeds when using the lenses that are effected by shutter shock? Here are a couple of shots typical of my kind of shooting....not really practical to drop shutter speed (subject in motion) and the ISO is high enough s it is (low light) The FA35 and FA43 are my staple low light lenses on the k1! FA35, 1/100 F2.5 ISO16000 FA43 1/60 F2 ISO 10000

03-20-2019, 04:24 PM	#28
BROO Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 655	A moving subject in the dark and its a bit soft? The last thing I would be doing is blame my equipment!

03-20-2019, 04:30 PM - 1 Like	#29
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by BROO Yes I did read the OP. That's why I suggested adjusting the ISO and aperture for particular combinations of camera and lens. That is what good photographers do. Nothing new here. Potentially every camera/lens combination has its own harmonic frequency sour spot. A good photographer knows their equipment. The OP is correct and doing the right thing but you need to know how your individual camera lens combination works. You keep mentioning what a "good photographer" does or should do, and I guess that's what prompted my last reply, and this one. It might not be your intention, and I may be unique in interpreting this, but it sounds like you're not sure (or questioning) if the OP is a "good photographer". In my view, he's noticed an issue, isolated it, is interested that it's happening with his particular camera and lens combo (because, as I said before, it doesn't happen with all cameras and lenses in the same circumstances), asking if others have experienced it with his specific combo, accepting he will have to adapt, and doing us all a service by relaying his experiences here. All of which strikes me as "good photographer" material in anyone's book - would you agree?

03-20-2019, 04:30 PM - 2 Likes	#30
StephenHampshire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Winchester Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,523	Originally posted by BROO A moving subject in the dark and its a bit soft? The last thing I would be doing is blame my equipment! I'm not, just pointing out that you can't always easily avoid the risky shutter speeds! The K1 and FA35 is my absolute favourite combination!