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04-26-2019, 11:55 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
When the bug occurs even in Off mode you just have a black screen INDEFINITELY until you release the AF button!!
Here is your clue that this is not related to the instant review feature.

There is something about your AF settings and/or sequence that has placed the camera in a "wait state" (deadlock) due to competing requirements.

That being said, I was able to reproduce several variants of the behavior on my K-3 in both live view and the optical viewfinder using my regular settings: AF-S (focus priority), AE-L with AF Locked = OFF, AF SPOT, AF button = AF1; though not the exact same behavior you are seeing.

FWIW, the "preview image" you are seeing is probably the last live view buffer and not the preview at all.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 04-26-2019 at 12:41 PM.
04-26-2019, 11:58 AM   #17
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I suggest using M mode with exposure set using green button (for convenience) on the first frame and fixed BB AF2 focus based on same. That will free you from holding buttons down through the shutter cycle (the probable cause of this behavior).


Steve

(...no, not a bug. Bugs are unexpected results or behaviors that happen during normal operation. Holding down buttons and expecting the usual shutter cycle with exposure settings and last focus point retained between exposures is not normal operation. BTW... it is that last underlined condition that is the point of deadlock.)

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-26-2019 at 12:13 PM.
04-27-2019, 03:56 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
I'm just curious to see the 3 shots that you merge.... only 3 shots seems to me a stiching not a Brenizer shots then I'm intrigued
Just at the top of this post you can see some examples Gives a more 'Medium Format' feel to the shot.

You should head over to this thread here if not visited already. We talk a lot about what constitutes a 'brenizer' type vibe in a shot vs what doesn't. I have taken a single shot with the FA31 that has more brenizer vibe than some of my 30-60 stitched shots with a FA77 at 1.8

All brenizers are stitched, what really matters is the bokeh panoramic aspect and where they can often stitch above and below subject focus as well as panning of course. I've seen some 2 stitched bokeh panoramas work really well, it's amazing what adding a simple extra frame here or there can do sometimes and drive that brenizer vibe. But yeah... I know what you're saying, sometimes 2-3 shots doesn't really drive that vibe very well. Technically it's a brenizer, just perhaps not a good one but still a really nice photo all the same (which is more what I think I was after with my shots at the top of the page, I wanted that 1:1 aspect ratio more but with high detail etc).

---------- Post added 04-28-19 at 09:14 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I suggest using M mode with exposure set using green button (for convenience) on the first frame and fixed BB AF2 focus based on same. That will free you from holding buttons down through the shutter cycle (the probable cause of this behavior).


Steve

(...no, not a bug. Bugs are unexpected results or behaviors that happen during normal operation. Holding down buttons and expecting the usual shutter cycle with exposure settings and last focus point retained between exposures is not normal operation. BTW... it is that last underlined condition that is the point of deadlock.)
Oh there are plenty workarounds, I think I said earlier I just like 'doubling up' on User Modes where possible. By binding AE-L with AF I got a Brenizer mode in Av mode that was intended for another kind of shooting scenario. On the K-1 I can also use the AE-L button, it's just on the KP I think I have that button assigned to something else (or it doesn't even have that button? lol I can't recall, I just recall it being an issue).

Well I'm disagreeing with you here with it being called 'not a bug' because I'm saying that on same user mode sometimes it displays this issue and sometimes not i.e. it definitely feels random and erratic rather than certain modes in combinations eliciting that affect. I have found other users elsewhere that have reported to experiencing what I have encountered (and sharing equally their frustrations), yet most of the times it doesn't seem to occur.

If you have a situation whereby 90% of the time x is expected as a the result of doing a+b+c but actually doing a+b+c = y for the other 10%, I call that a bug.

If you have a situation whereby doing a+b+d = x and a+b+c = y, then it's not a bug... perhaps. If it is still odd behaviour that makes little sense, it could still be considered a bug i.e. that the developer should also make a+b+d also result in y and not x, so even if there are a certain combinations of settings being toggled on and off that cause this issue then it can still be arguably called a bug.

Right now I can't replicate my issue, only that I have encountered it on many occasion. Live View, BBF, screen won't resume after the shot, not even getting to preview, stuck on either blank screen or (as you say) last Live View Buffer...

More often than not this thankfully doesn't occur.

So bugs can be erratic or logical (just unintentional).

The purpose of this thread was to see if;

a) anyone else has had this happen or notice this happens
b) can anyone replicate it
c) is it just my K-1 that's doing it

Currently we're trying to ascertain if it's a+b+c = x or if it's a+b+d = y (whereby it's hard to see the differences between a+b+c vs a+b+d, things look the same but perhaps subtle difference in a setting which can result in two very different outcomes (a deadlock vs no deadlock).

Last edited by BruceBanner; 04-27-2019 at 04:19 PM.
04-27-2019, 05:04 PM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Well I'm disagreeing with you here with it being called 'not a bug'
I do software development. I guess that makes me a stickler. A common fail-over for user bad behavior is to simply stop the machine until they quit doing it.

I easily replicated the issue or at least a semblance and it is caused simply by leaving buttons pushed during the time when the camera would normally be resetting state for the next exposure. The work-around is easy and does not require any effort aside from paying attention to task. You are welcome to bring the matter to Ricoh's attention, but I can pretty much guarantee that they will simply say, "Don't do that!"

Have fun!



Steve

04-28-2019, 12:52 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I do software development. I guess that makes me a stickler. A common fail-over for user bad behavior is to simply stop the machine until they quit doing it.

I easily replicated the issue or at least a semblance and it is caused simply by leaving buttons pushed during the time when the camera would normally be resetting state for the next exposure. The work-around is easy and does not require any effort aside from paying attention to task. You are welcome to bring the matter to Ricoh's attention, but I can pretty much guarantee that they will simply say, "Don't do that!"

Have fun!



Steve
Well, I'm not a software developer but my father was and watched him at work and had many 'dinner time' discussions over bugs. A bug is not a bug if a program just isn't doing something the user wants or expects. A bug is something that is conforming to what my previous post detailed, namely erratic software outcomes that are hard to predict or behaviour that strays from the norm unintentionally. You can ask a developer if something is a bug, and they can report back "nope, I wanted it to do that because of x,y or z" or the developer goes "yeah... it shouldn't do that, lemme look into that

The solutions you offer don't work well and I've detailed as to why but I'll repeat the crux of the matter again. IR is a global settings, if it could be bound to User Mode then this might offer some kind of solution, but it's not. Do we want the user to menu dive each time they want to shoot photography in a certain style (brenizer method for example, or quickish action shots in LV mode)? If you have review set to even 1 sec, then by not using BBF and using either Manual mode or AE-L button we actually get IR of 1 second when we might not want them, which then involves a menu dive to toggle it off (if this is your suggestion). And then you resume normal shooting and perhaps would want the 1 sec IR back which involves re-entering the menu and toggling it back. PIA. If IR was bound to User Mode it might help with your workarounds, but it doesn't.

Whether it's accidental or not, the fact that the majority of the shooting time in LV mode with BBF held down actually skips IR and puts you back in the action is fantastic! The bug is that it sometimes does not. Since making this post I cannot replicate it again, however the morning I made the post it was doing it (hence post). Considering I just shot a Ball last night and was using LV with BBF and Manual Focusing (using BBF to help me see I have acquired focus) is another example of LV working great, I had 1 sec reviews but as long as I held BBF down it skipped that and allowed me right back into the dance floor action (so just illustrating another non-brenizer example of how I think the system should behave, by holding down BBF it senses you're not done and would rather continue shooting vs getting the IR). And this is great because if you want the review you can have it, just release the BBF button. All this might be accidental on Ricoh's part, maybe it's supposed to do a IR always, I dunno, what's odd is that it doesn't sometimes and I wonder if it is a combo of settings that tells it not to do a IR and let you right back in the action vs not, because if I knew that I would be better prepared and can work around the issue. Like you jokingly said I'm not holding my breath for a bug fix that I can't even easily replicate, ricoh's resources are quite thin (firmware updates being more lens stuff than features etc).

It was just during the process of this thread that I started trying out other things like the OVF thing whereby we also seem to have some quirks, such as the LV info screen not coming back between shots and resuming info but instead a kinda 'stuck pre IR image' that is behaving like the occasional LV bug that I encountered. Perhaps this is normal, not many notice as we usually have our eyes stuffed down the OVF hahaha But I felt it worth mentioning as it illustrates a very similar behaviour to my initial post problem (thus perhaps providing some weight against my claim).

If you ever come across a time when in LV shooting and you get that deadlock, please see if you can record the camera settings that caused it and report back, perhaps we can find out why this sometimes (unfortunately) happens.
1 Day Ago - 1 Like   #21
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I encountered this bug again this morning when attempting to take one of my classic FA43 3 portrait stitched shots. I am now wondering if the bug rears it's head when using flash, as this time I was using the V6ii to ocf (RF60x). It might be that when adding that to the equation that the bug appears. I indeed had to use the AE-L button, take the shot, release shutter just so that it didn't lock up in the review. Slightly annoying because as you know I have things set up so that the AF focus locks the AE anyway, this way it takes longer to take the shot...

First time I encountered it in awhile, other times it was not doing it at all I had no flash connected... so now I'm thinking it's perhaps related to flash... I'll dig a little more and see if this seems to be true.
1 Day Ago   #22
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I tried and learned something for me. As long as I press the shutter down IR stays on. BBF didn't do it. I take what I learned as a feature.
1 Day Ago   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
I tried and learned something for me. As long as I press the shutter down IR stays on. BBF didn't do it. I take what I learned as a feature.
That's just it... I too have BBF enabled for this purpose and it's still doing it (I keep BBF down as it locks the AE). If you have settings you can share that might be good to know (if you too are getting locked in IR).

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Holding the ae lock for bbf didn't give me anything. I was also holding the shutter button down. I let that up to get out of IR. Maybe with flash weight you hold tighter? Maybe your user setting has switched the function? It might be a clue is all.
1 Day Ago   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
Holding the ae lock for bbf didn't give me anything. I was also holding the shutter button down. I let that up to get out of IR. Maybe with flash weight you hold tighter? Maybe your user setting has switched the function? It might be a clue is all.
Nah it's nothing like that, it's literally locking the IR and not letting me out this morning under a User Mode I use frequently for this purpose, whereas on other days the same approach it toggles off and out of IR (like 'normal') and lets me continue with the next shot (and BBF is still held down all this time to keep the AE going). Literally the only difference today is that I had flash up and running, whereas in days gone past and things were working fine (and I was trying to replicate this issue) there was no flash attached.

I'm just a bit perplexed at how a User Mode with specific same settings can one day result in an experience when you use BBF, keep the button pressed down, take the shot with the front shutter button (release front shutter button but still have BBF held down), see the IR for an instance, then it leaves IR and lets you take another shot (remember... all this time you've still have had the BBF button held down), but on another day doing the exact same thing would result in a IR lock, and you HAVE to let go of BBF to get out of IR lock/freeze (and therefore I lose the AE from the shot taken previously...). Today the latter happened, only flash was involved whereas previous attempts to replicate the IR lock/freeze were unsuccessful under the same conditions (but I had no flash attached). So the plot might have thickened slightly... I'll try again when I have more time, currently I am knee deep in post processing events.
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