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11-09-2019, 03:50 AM   #1
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1:1 Crop Mode Speeds?

I can't find the info quickly, but did any review on the K-1 do a comprehensive test on the K-1 when in 1:1 mode (as it wasn't natively supported in the initial firmware roll out) in terms of burst speed, buffer limits etc? Is it much improved over FF or similar to APS-C crop?

TIA

Bruce

11-09-2019, 05:49 AM   #2
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is this what you are thinking of ?

K 1, K 1 II and K 3 II camera comparison

Full frame: H: 4.4 fps (70 JPG, 17 RAW) M: 3.0 fps (100 JPG, 20 RAW) L: 0.7 fps (100 JPG, 100 RAW)
APS-C crop: H: 6.5 fps (100 JPG, 50 RAW) M: 3.0 fps (100 JPG, 70 RAW) L: 1.0 fls (100 JPG, 100 RAW)

Full frame: H: 4.4 fps (70 JPG, 17 RAW) M: 3.0 fps (100 JPG, 20 RAW) L: 0.7 fps (100 JPG, 100 RAW)
APS-C crop: H: 6.4 fps (100 JPG, 50 RAW) M: 3.0 fps (100 JPG, 70 RAW) L: 1.0 fls (100 JPG, 100 RAW)

Hi: 8.3 fps up to approx. 60 frames (JPG), up to approx. 23 frames (RAW), M: 4.5 fps up to approx 100 frames (JPG), 32 frames (RAW), Lo: 3 fps uup to approx. 200 frames (JPG), up to appox. 52 frames (RAW)
11-09-2019, 06:03 AM - 1 Like   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
is this what you are thinking of ?

K 1, K 1 II and K 3 II camera comparison

Full frame: H: 4.4 fps (70 JPG, 17 RAW) M: 3.0 fps (100 JPG, 20 RAW) L: 0.7 fps (100 JPG, 100 RAW)
APS-C crop: H: 6.5 fps (100 JPG, 50 RAW) M: 3.0 fps (100 JPG, 70 RAW) L: 1.0 fls (100 JPG, 100 RAW)
I think he wants that type of data for the square crop mode.
11-09-2019, 06:34 AM   #4
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In my experience with the K-1 and K-1ii, there is little or no frame rate benefit from the square format. APS-c frame rate benefit is striking.

11-09-2019, 08:29 AM - 2 Likes   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I can't find the info quickly, but did any review on the K-1 do a comprehensive test on the K-1 when in 1:1 mode (as it wasn't natively supported in the initial firmware roll out) in terms of burst speed, buffer limits etc? Is it much improved over FF or similar to APS-C crop?

TIA

Bruce
Square mode reads the full FF frame and a simple square mask is put / cut above it without deleting any pixels in raw capture. By example you can see this if you develop a square raw image using software like PT Gui. It removes or doesn‘t read or ignores the „square masking info“ (like the pixel area outside the official full frame) and you’ll see the whole FF raw capture. So my guess is, there won‘t be any speed difference between a FF and Square Mode capture.

APS-C mode is another story. As far as I know this cut-out is hardware-based so that only the APS-C area is captured - much less pixels to read-out and thus much faster than FF read-out.

Last edited by acoufap; 11-09-2019 at 08:39 AM.
11-09-2019, 08:41 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
Square mode reads the full FF frame and a simple square mask is put / cut above it without deleting any pixels in raw capture. By example you can see this if you develop a square raw image using software like PT Gui. It removes or doesn‘t read or ignores the „square masking info“ (like the pixel area outside the official full frame) and you’ll see the whole FF raw capture. So my guess is, there won‘t be any speed difference between a FF and Square Mode capture.

APS-C mode is another story. As far as I know this cut-out is hardware-based so that only the APS-C area is captured - much less pixels to read-out and thus much faster than FF read-out.
Very helpful! I had no idea it was only a mask.
11-09-2019, 10:08 AM   #7
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the things you can learn here at the forums

the willingness of members to help others is one of the outstanding features found here
11-09-2019, 12:24 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
Square mode reads the full FF frame and a simple square mask is put / cut above it without deleting any pixels in raw capture.
The same is true of other manufacturers: I've seen a Canon user demonstrate this in Lightroom.

11-09-2019, 07:14 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
Square mode reads the full FF frame and a simple square mask is put / cut above it without deleting any pixels in raw capture. By example you can see this if you develop a square raw image using software like PT Gui. It removes or doesn‘t read or ignores the „square masking info“ (like the pixel area outside the official full frame) and you’ll see the whole FF raw capture. So my guess is, there won‘t be any speed difference between a FF and Square Mode capture.

APS-C mode is another story. As far as I know this cut-out is hardware-based so that only the APS-C area is captured - much less pixels to read-out and thus much faster than FF read-out.
Ok, that's interesting. I was just thinking about it, and sometimes when I am out and about I deliberate choose 1:1 for composing the shot. The thought then struck me that perhaps it was cropping the RAW and like how we have the APS-C genuine crop perhaps the same benefits would be had in terms of buffer limits and what not. I am somewhat saddened to hear that is not the case...

QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
The same is true of other manufacturers: I've seen a Canon user demonstrate this in Lightroom.
On the other hand I didn't think this was so.. I thought I had imported a 1:1 RAW crop into LR and it showed only 1:1 and not the original 3:2 shot? So if the crop is a mask, but not presented itself like that in LR/PS natively, does that mean you can get the mask to go away and get a 3:2 shot back of the 1:1 crop taken an the time (somehow with some software)?
11-10-2019, 04:08 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Ok, that's interesting. I was just thinking about it, and sometimes when I am out and about I deliberate choose 1:1 for composing the shot. The thought then struck me that perhaps it was cropping the RAW and like how we have the APS-C genuine crop perhaps the same benefits would be had in terms of buffer limits and what not. I am somewhat saddened to hear that is not the case...



On the other hand I didn't think this was so.. I thought I had imported a 1:1 RAW crop into LR and it showed only 1:1 and not the original 3:2 shot? So if the crop is a mask, but not presented itself like that in LR/PS natively, does that mean you can get the mask to go away and get a 3:2 shot back of the 1:1 crop taken an the time (somehow with some software)?
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
So if the crop is a mask, but not presented itself like that in LR/PS natively, does that mean you can get the mask to go away and get a 3:2 shot back of the 1:1 crop taken an the time (somehow with some software)?
When K-1 was introduced I as always used Capture One Pro to develop the raw files. Capture One Pro doesn't use the raw internal preview it generates it's own that fits the inidvidual demands (monitor size etc.).

When we got K-1 Square Mode with a firmware update I immediately realized that Capture One Pro didn't create Square previews for my K-1 Square Mode shots. So I reported this as a bug to Phase One. It didn't last long and we got the bug fix to get the expected Square preview in Capture One Pro. Other software like PT Gui never offered this correct preview. So you have to remember that you intended to make a square image. I don't think I can decide in Capture One Pro to change a square mode raw shot to show as a 3:2 full screen shot. Maybe Lightroom offers this?!

My mainly used raw converter is Capture One Pro. But sometimes I try or use others for special cases. Here are my findings concerning handling K-1 Square Mode shots ...

Raw developers that don't show square previews for K-1 Square mode images: Affinity Photo, Raw Therapee, PT Gui (I think it uses DCRaw as raw converter)
Raw developers that show square previews for K-1 Square mode images: Apple Aperture (!), Capture One Pro, Darktable, PDCU

The funny thing is, that Apple Aperture 3 handles the K-1 Square Mode information correctly. It proves that it's a basic functionality that's related to the basic os raw support and not anchored in the application (that's not updated since years) - at least in Mac OS. Unfortunately Apple Aperture 3 doesn't work anymore from MacOS Catalina (MacOS 10.15) on. Until now I didn't upgrade MacOS.

If you use a lens that in FF mode shows the image circle or strong vignetting you may decide to shoot in K-1 Square mode to create a panorama using PT Gui. Then you should first convert your square captures to square tiff images and based on these images create your PT Gui panorama. If you don't do so, you'll get darker areas in your resulting panorama image since the vignetting areas are going into the panorama computing equation. I know this because of having made this experience. So - it may be important to know how your imaging software/ raw converter handles K-1 square mode.

Sorry, if I dived a bit off-topic.

Last edited by acoufap; 11-10-2019 at 05:23 AM.
11-10-2019, 04:48 AM   #11
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Interesting, I was going to play with shooting some square 1:1 Raw images. From the info presented here, its useless to use this in camera. Doesn't save memory nor speed up camera. A shame. Guess my Pentax Q work the same way. Good to know.
Thanks,
barondla
11-10-2019, 05:19 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Interesting, I was going to play with shooting some square 1:1 Raw images. From the info presented here, its useless to use this in camera. Doesn't save memory nor speed up camera. A shame. Guess my Pentax Q work the same way. Good to know.
Thanks,
barondla
It‘s IMO a very good feature if you want
  • to compose your FF square images with K-1 viewfinder or liveview precisely while shooting
  • to get a good FF square crop with DA (especially zoom) lenses cause you exactly see where vignetting or image circle gets visible within the square area
  • it‘s very important if you shoot solely jpeg and want to create square images
I think crop area sensor read-out needs hardware (sensor) support like it‘s given for the standard APS-C crop area (4800 x 3200px). As long as there are no sensors used in cameras that support more flexible crop area pixel read-out, we won‘t see raw level crops with higher speed read-out, less memory consumption etc. - unfortunately.

Last edited by acoufap; 11-10-2019 at 05:30 AM.
11-10-2019, 07:51 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
if the crop is a mask, but not presented itself like that in LR/PS natively, does that mean you can get the mask to go away and get a 3:2 shot back of the 1:1 crop taken an the time (somehow with some software)?
Yes, that's what I understood from the video. Rather like setting the camera to B&W but being able to restore the colour from the RAW file because the full colour info is in the file. I've done this on my K-7 in Photoshop/CameraRAW.
11-11-2019, 08:00 PM - 1 Like   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
When K-1 was introduced I as always used Capture One Pro to develop the raw files. Capture One Pro doesn't use the raw internal preview it generates it's own that fits the inidvidual demands (monitor size etc.).

When we got K-1 Square Mode with a firmware update I immediately realized that Capture One Pro didn't create Square previews for my K-1 Square Mode shots. So I reported this as a bug to Phase One. It didn't last long and we got the bug fix to get the expected Square preview in Capture One Pro. Other software like PT Gui never offered this correct preview. So you have to remember that you intended to make a square image. I don't think I can decide in Capture One Pro to change a square mode raw shot to show as a 3:2 full screen shot. Maybe Lightroom offers this?!

My mainly used raw converter is Capture One Pro. But sometimes I try or use others for special cases. Here are my findings concerning handling K-1 Square Mode shots ...

Raw developers that don't show square previews for K-1 Square mode images: Affinity Photo, Raw Therapee, PT Gui (I think it uses DCRaw as raw converter)
Raw developers that show square previews for K-1 Square mode images: Apple Aperture (!), Capture One Pro, Darktable, PDCU

The funny thing is, that Apple Aperture 3 handles the K-1 Square Mode information correctly. It proves that it's a basic functionality that's related to the basic os raw support and not anchored in the application (that's not updated since years) - at least in Mac OS. Unfortunately Apple Aperture 3 doesn't work anymore from MacOS Catalina (MacOS 10.15) on. Until now I didn't upgrade MacOS.

If you use a lens that in FF mode shows the image circle or strong vignetting you may decide to shoot in K-1 Square mode to create a panorama using PT Gui. Then you should first convert your square captures to square tiff images and based on these images create your PT Gui panorama. If you don't do so, you'll get darker areas in your resulting panorama image since the vignetting areas are going into the panorama computing equation. I know this because of having made this experience. So - it may be important to know how your imaging software/ raw converter handles K-1 square mode.

Sorry, if I dived a bit off-topic.
So it had been awhile since I had taken a 1:1 crop shot in camera in RAW. I couldn't recall what I actually saw when I visited the file to LR, but I can now show you this image that I took on the weekend and what prompted this whole thread;



The file itself however is still showing a whopping 41mb so indeed it is not a real crop, despite being in LR and selecting the crop tool to see if I could discover any more of the file to work with.

RawTherapee however shows the real deal;



On the one hand it kinda sucks that we're not getting some smaller RAW file sizes, something that might help with buffer and other issues. On the other hand its good that if you change your mind during PP you can in fact gain the real uncropped image back if you like.

And yes, I regularly use the HD DA20-40 in FF mode and 1:1 feels quite usable at the extremes (20 and 40mm). FYI, with PS (and I think LR) the vignetting removal for panorama stitching can be done before the process is undetaken, up to the user etc.


QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
It‘s IMO a very good feature if you want
  • to compose your FF square images with K-1 viewfinder or liveview precisely while shooting
  • to get a good FF square crop with DA (especially zoom) lenses cause you exactly see where vignetting or image circle gets visible within the square area
  • it‘s very important if you shoot solely jpeg and want to create square images
I think crop area sensor read-out needs hardware (sensor) support like it‘s given for the standard APS-C crop area (4800 x 3200px). As long as there are no sensors used in cameras that support more flexible crop area pixel read-out, we won‘t see raw level crops with higher speed read-out, less memory consumption etc. - unfortunately.
Good point about Jpg, I wondered if for example taking the shot in jpg mode 1:1 would behave the same way as detailed above in my screenshots (with the DNG). I know when shooting Jpg the camera settings are baked into the file (so things like monochrome, WB and all that stuff is taken into account into the final file, but do we know for sure that recovering the FF shot back from a 1:1 crop selection in Jpg is definitely not possible?
11-11-2019, 09:50 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I know when shooting Jpg the camera settings are baked into the file (so things like monochrome, WB and all that stuff is taken into account into the final file, but do we know for sure that recovering the FF shot back from a 1:1 crop selection in Jpg is definitely not possible?
You‘re a kind of funny guy! - Put the camera on a tripod and capture three shots of the exact same scenery in FF, Square and APSC mode. Develop it without any manual or automatic changes in LR and generate jpg‘s for each with same settings - what are the sizes of the jpg files?
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