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11-23-2019, 12:38 AM   #1
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Electronic shutter and flash

Anyone know why flash isn't available with the electronic shutter? The Q and K-01 to work well with flash in mirrorless mode.
Thanks,
barondla

11-23-2019, 01:02 AM   #2
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I guess ES is supposed for higher speed but flash normally can't support that speed?
11-23-2019, 03:03 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Anyone know why flash isn't available with the electronic shutter? The Q and K-01 to work well with flash in mirrorless mode.
Thanks,
barondla
But mirrorless does not mean no mechanical shutter.

I think it related to how quickly the camera can expose, read, and turn off the sensor. This is why you get "rolling shutter" effect with ES without flash. If you were able to use ES with a flash, there is no one moment in time when all the sensor is registering and recording light.

Last edited by pschlute; 11-23-2019 at 03:18 AM.
11-23-2019, 05:51 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
But mirrorless does not mean no mechanical shutter.

I think it related to how quickly the camera can expose, read, and turn off the sensor. This is why you get "rolling shutter" effect with ES without flash. If you were able to use ES with a flash, there is no one moment in time when all the sensor is registering and recording light.
True, mirrorless doesn't mean there's no mechanical shutter. Unless it's the Q with an adapted lens and non eom shutter adapter.
Sensor size might be responsible for the slow 1/13 flash sync.
Thanks,
barondla

barondla

11-23-2019, 06:16 AM - 1 Like   #5
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Mirrorless means sans mirror. You are too early for the shutterless cameras, they will come when the mirrorless business potential will be exhauted in 2050, at which point you'll also have to buy new lenses because they'll made new lens mounts supposedly better for shutterless cameras. What comes next to shutterless will be sensorless, and you'll have to pay a premium for it just because the camera will be empty.
11-23-2019, 12:12 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Anyone know why flash isn't available with the electronic shutter? The Q and K-01 to work well with flash in mirrorless mode.
Thanks,
barondla
The K-1 takes approximately 1/10 sec to scan across the sensor with electronic shutter. The flash takes a millisecond to do its job. All you will get is a tiny section of exposure. My Q uses a mechanical shutter system with Q series lens. With adapted lenses on cheap adapters ES is not availible for the same reason as above. That is why there is a shutter in the Pentax Q adapter.
11-23-2019, 11:17 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
The K-1 takes approximately 1/10 sec to scan across the sensor with electronic shutter. The flash takes a millisecond to do its job. All you will get is a tiny section of exposure. My Q uses a mechanical shutter system with Q series lens. With adapted lenses on cheap adapters ES is not availible for the same reason as above. That is why there is a shutter in the Pentax Q adapter.
But, flash is available with the Q's electronic shutter. Use it all the time with c mount, Pentax 110, and other lenses lacking a shutter. ES Flash sync is 1/13 on every Q except Q10. Q10 is 1/30. Give it a try.
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barondla
11-24-2019, 01:59 AM   #8
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Well that sent me scuttling for the Q (original) - it is been a while but that is what stopped me from persevering with macro on the Q.
And yes you are right - the on board flash does work - but not the hot-shoe so my ring flash wouldn't fire.
But with the K1 the flash would have to continue for 1/10 sec at least - I guess that is possible?

11-24-2019, 02:40 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Mirrorless means sans mirror. You are too early for the shutterless cameras, they will come when the mirrorless business potential will be exhauted in 2050, at which point you'll also have to buy new lenses because they'll made new lens mounts supposedly better for shutterless cameras. What comes next to shutterless will be sensorless, and you'll have to pay a premium for it just because the camera will be empty.
I guess they will probably call that last one a senseless camera...
11-28-2019, 11:42 AM   #10
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I set my K1 to ES and time = 1/1000s. And I set my flash to strobe mode with one hundert flashes a second.Then I took a picture in the dark and fired the flash manually at the same time.

I got a lot of white lines in a black picture. One white line for each strobe flash. The lines have a distance of 242 pixel. So, reading a full frame with 4912 lines the K1 will need about 0,2s.

With ES, for times longer than 1/5 s there is a time slot, where the flash can reach all lines. (If you fire the flash manually at the right time.) It's similar like the mechanical shutter, for times longer than 1/200s there is a time slot for a flash, where it can reach the whole picture. Only much faster. And automatically.
11-28-2019, 12:08 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
Well that sent me scuttling for the Q (original) - it is been a while but that is what stopped me from persevering with macro on the Q.
And yes you are right - the on board flash does work - but not the hot-shoe so my ring flash wouldn't fire.
But with the K1 the flash would have to continue for 1/10 sec at least - I guess that is possible?
Just tried the Pentax AF540FGZ flash on the original Q hotshoe. It fires fine, as I remembered. Perhaps it has to be a P-TTL flash to work? I would have to dig to find a non P-TTL flash to test this.

Thanks,
barondla
11-28-2019, 12:32 PM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by siegbert Quote
I set my K1 to ES and time = 1/1000s. And I set my flash to strobe mode with one hundert flashes a second.Then I took a picture in the dark and fired the flash manually at the same time.

I got a lot of white lines in a black picture. One white line for each strobe flash. The lines have a distance of 242 pixel. So, reading a full frame with 4912 lines the K1 will need about 0,2s.

With ES, for times longer than 1/5 s there is a time slot, where the flash can reach all lines. (If you fire the flash manually at the right time.) It's similar like the mechanical shutter, for times longer than 1/200s there is a time slot for a flash, where it can reach the whole picture. Only much faster. And automatically.
Cool experiment!. But would at shutter speed slower than 1/5 you get just a screen of lines related to your strobe mode speed.?
11-28-2019, 12:39 PM   #13
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So on the Q I can get the ringflash to fire if I use a light sensitive slave trigger and the on camera flash to fire it. But a dark image at 1/5 sec. I think it is because of the camera pre flash metering flash if that makes sense!
11-29-2019, 12:44 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by siegbert Quote
I set my K1 to ES and time = 1/1000s. And I set my flash to strobe mode with one hundert flashes a second.Then I took a picture in the dark and fired the flash manually at the same time.

I got a lot of white lines in a black picture. One white line for each strobe flash. The lines have a distance of 242 pixel. So, reading a full frame with 4912 lines the K1 will need about 0,2s.

With ES, for times longer than 1/5 s there is a time slot, where the flash can reach all lines. (If you fire the flash manually at the right time.) It's similar like the mechanical shutter, for times longer than 1/200s there is a time slot for a flash, where it can reach the whole picture. Only much faster. And automatically.
Fascinating experiment! So if done correctly the K-1 can use the electronic shutter with flash. Cool. Thanks for doing the research and posting it here siegbert.

GUB, there are optical slaves that can be set to ignore the first flash and only react to the 2nd one. One of those should allow the ring flash to work.

Thanks,
barondla
11-29-2019, 11:32 AM - 1 Like   #15
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ES and Pixel Shift with strobe flash

Today I have modified the parameters. I set my flashlight (Yongnuo 560IV) to strobe mode with 6 flashes per second with a power of 1/32, which allows up to 40 flashes. And I set the exposure time of the K1 to 1/5s. Then I started the strobe flash and pressed the shutter button. I got a good pictures, only some lines are a bit brighter than the others.

And I tried with Pixel Shift. Starting the strobeflash, pressing the shutter button, strobing until the K1 has finished PS, stopping the strobe. I works. Only some brighter lines somewhere in the picture.

Some theory: If the strobeflash has exactly the same frequenzy (5Hz) as the camera (1/5s), you should not get any dark or bright line in the picture. But normally the frequencies / times of camera and flash are not exactly the same. If the flash is a little bit slower, you will get same black lines. If the flash is faster, you will get lines with double exposure. If think, some brighter lines with double exposure are less disturbing than black lines.


But try it on your on !
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