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08-12-2016, 05:53 AM   #31
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I feel a deja vu....

08-12-2016, 06:07 AM   #32
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Too, funny, "Pentx should ignore their own specs and start manufacturing to SIgma's specs so less than loyal Pentax customers can buy Sigma lenses."

The next thing would be, if Pentax did alter their mounts to use Sigma lenses, would Sigma sue so that Pentax would have to pay to use the Sigma spec.?

With the big downturn in DSLR sales everywhere but Pentax, I'd like to see Pentax make a pile of camera bodies that wouldn't accept Sigma lenses at all. Find a weakness in their reverse engineered design, and make all their new lenses inoperable. They are just skimming sales from the demand created by Pentax bodies. Deep six the pirates.

I realize not everyone is like me, and sells images that were taken on a K20D with a ki lens, and who prefer compact light weight gear, as opposed top the big huge heavy gear that Sigma makes. but I have to say, within the next year, I won't have any Sigma lenses but the one that are broken that I couldn't in cool conscience sell.

At this point 10 years down the line, I just don't like any sigma gear. IF someone offered me a fair price for all my Sigma gear, they'd be gone tomorrow.

So while I don't expect anyone else to feel this way, I just want to make sure you all know, there is a dissenting opinion.

Last edited by normhead; 08-12-2016 at 06:17 AM.
08-12-2016, 06:59 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I feel a deja vu....
I feel bored.

I'm not sure why I should care.
What is the significance of a scratch on a camera body?

If you look at my pictures, on the previous page, of my old Super Program, my cameras have never been pampered. At some point the the leather strap which came with it broke, so I replaced it with a strap from a purse my wife was about to trash. Later, as the first picture shows, the left strap anchor came off, leaving just a hole on that side of the body (*). I commented earlier that I probably should have cleaned it before photographing it, but some of the stains, as well as various scratches picked up over eleven years of service, are permanent - you might even call them badges of service.

(*) and on my signature picture, you can see the right anchor, but no corresponding left anchor ... because there is none
08-12-2016, 07:02 AM   #34
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Norm - I feel that the Sigma lens compatibility problem is Sigma's issue, and theirs alone, given that they reverse engineer and choose not to partner with Ricoh / Pentax.

But I respectfully take issue with a couple of things you've said:

"... so less than loyal Pentax customers can buy Sigma lenses."

Just because someone chooses to buy a Sigma lens doesn't make them a less-than-loyal customer. What... I shouldn't have bought my Sigma 17-50 f/2.8? I shouldn't have bought my Tamron 28-75 f/2.8? Wait, hang on, I bought a different brand of camera with a different mount, and I use that alongside my Pentax cameras. I shouldn't have bought those? Am I a disloyal customer? I've bought several Pentax camera bodies and I-haven't-counted-how-many Pentax lenses in the last few years... how does buying a Sigma product in addition to those make me any less loyal?

I'd like to see Pentax make a pile of camera bodies that wouldn't accept Sigma lenses at all. Find a weakness in their reverse engineered design, and make all their new lenses inoperable. They are just skimming sales from the demand created by Pentax bodies. Deep six the pirates.

Well, if Ricoh / Pentax did that, it'd keep you as a customer and lose me (and a whole bunch of others, I'd predict). I value the choices that I have in lenses and accessories for my Pentax cameras, both OEM and third party. I know what I'm buying when I buy Sigma, just as I know what I'm buying when I buy Ricoh / Pentax. Sigma isn't forcing me or anyone else to buy its products. But it *is* offering competitively priced products... Which potentially encourages to keep Ricoh / Pentax and other lens manufacturers reasonably priced, as well as offering a choice for those who simply can't afford or justify the price of an OEM lens.

I hear that you don't like Sigma products, and I respect that... but you're absolutely right, I don't feel that way.

Signed,

A Less Loyal Pentax Customer (?)

08-12-2016, 07:16 AM   #35
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QuoteQuote:
I hear that you don't like Sigma products, and I respect that... but you're absolutely right, I don't feel that way.
The thing that most upsets me about Sigma is their use of K-mount without contributing the the R&D that is developing K-mount, moving on into KAF4 which they will undoubtedly pirate and use unless Pentax cripples the mount for un-licensed product. The simple fact is, every time anyone buys a Sigma lens, they support Sigma corporate policy. Your lens was cheaper because you didn't pay anything to support K-mount. Over the years I've become increasingly uncomfortable with that. I can't force Sigma to do the right thing, but I can personally boycott their product and encourage others to do so.

I'd like to see a Pentax licensing code recognition built into all Pentax cameras KAF4 on, where the camera would check for modern unlicensed lenses and block their use. Sigma could reverse engineer the mount, but they couldn't copy the code without committing a clear violation of copyright law and being force to pay up. Pentax would be completely within their legal rights to do so, and should IMHO do exactly that.

Using Sigma lenses is stealing access to K-mount. Pentax owns K-mount, Sigma doesn't, is there some other way to look at this?

The nonsense I see in my libraries, when I try and sort by lens and Sigma lenses randomly appear with images not taken with that lens, or the lens has the wrong name, etc. has cost me hours of time. Not paying the licensing fee and not having properly assigned identifiers for it's lenses is crazy. There are times when my software doesn't know if an image was taken with a 70-300, the 18-250, or one of the myriad of lenses I don't own, like the 18-200 is insane. Saying these lenses were Pentax compatible was fraud. They are not 100% Pentax compatible, and if you buy another lens that uses the same "reverse" engineered pirate code, you will have identification problems in your exif. 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought it was a problem, now with close to 100 thousand images on file, it's a huge problem.. Now, it has cost me hours of time and I have images I have no idea what Sigma product they were taken with. A warning label stating, "this product is not endorsed by Pentax and does not conform to K-mount I'D standards" should be a sticker on the front of every lens. SO at least folks like myself who care about such things have a clear choice.

As we move into more and ore electronic components in lenses, these issue are going to get worse and worse. Already you give up in camera lens correction, on many lenses, multiple selectable sensor points, and many other features. As there gets to be more cross talk between the camera and the lenses as in the K-70 and DA 55-300 PLM, these things are going to get worse and worse. So, do you want to support companies who are going to have a future with Pentax, or don't you?

Sometimes you have to, Sigma comes out with something first that Pentax doesn't have. If in the end, that means Pentax never comes out with that particular style of lens, that hurts the rest of us.

Last edited by normhead; 08-12-2016 at 07:52 AM.
08-12-2016, 08:02 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Not paying the licensing fee and not having properly assigned identifiers for it's lenses is crazy.
Several people have mentioned Sigma not "licensing" their lenses with Pentax, etc. I asked earlier if that was even an option, but did not get any response. Again, is that even an option? I'm asking you normhead, since you are the one who mentioned it most recently.

Does anybody have any hard information about it? I've never heard of Pentax offering "licensing" for 3rd-party lenses, short of a full re-brand, in which case it's more like Pentax is licensing the lens from a 3rd party.


In regards to the main point of your post, I strongly disagree. Aftermarket suppliers are a big part of nearly any hobby, from photography to cars. Competitors light the fire of competition under each other, and the end-user benefits.

Would Pentax users really have been better off with no modern 70-200mm f/2.8 lens all these years? Without an UWA zoom wider than 12mm? Without an 85mm f/1.4? Etc, etc. I appreciate that you're loyal and passionate, but it seems a bit too extreme.

And given the era of bad-SDM that we lived through as Pentax-owners, it was nice to have another source for good lenses backed up with a batter warranty and service. That alone probably helped keep some people in the Pentax fold.

Last edited by Edgar_in_Indy; 08-12-2016 at 08:19 AM.
08-12-2016, 08:07 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The thing that most upsets me about Sigma is their use of K-mount without contributing the the R&D that is developing K-mount, moving on into KAF4 which they will undoubtedly pirate and use unless Pentax cripples the mount for un-licensed product. The simple fact is, every time anyone buys a Sigma lens, they support Sigma corporate policy. Your lens was cheaper because you didn't pay anything to support K-mount. Over the years I've become increasingly uncomfortable with that. I can't force Sigma to do the right thing, but I can personally boycott their product and encourage others to do so.
I do see where you're coming from, Norm, I just don't view it that way.

When I bought my Pentax camera body (bodies, actually), I paid my share towards product development. What I didn't buy into (and it would have changed my purchasing decision had this been the case) was a binding, life-long agreement to buy *only* Pentax lenses and accessories in order that I keep contributing to the K-mount development budget. I bought a camera that gives me choices and freedom on how to leverage its capabilities.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Using Sigma lenses is stealing access to K-mount. Pentax owns K-mount, Sigma doesn't, is there some other way to look at this?
Actually, on my cameras, I own the mount (not the design, not the patent - but the physical mount). So if some third party chooses to manufacture a product that fits my camera and meets my needs (be it a lens, grip, IR remote, battery, case, strap, sensor cleaning kit etc.), Ricoh / Pentax needn't concern itself with that. I'm not stealing - I didn't sign up to be a constant source of development budget. Ricoh / Pentax can go about its business and I'll go about mine, head held high.

Sigma didn't steal the mount specification either. It reverse engineered it. As a consumer, I understand its approach comes with potential risks to me - compatibility risks that wouldn't be present if I bought an OEM product. But then its my choice as to whether I pay for a third party unlicensed product. Note that "third party unlicensed" is not the same thing as pirated. Sigma makes its own products that are compatible - so far as they can be, based on the success (or otherwise) of reverse engineering - with Pentax cameras. Like K&N makes air filters that are compatible with different makes and models of car, so Sigma makes lenses that are compatible with different cameras. Neither K&N nor Sigma stole anything from the OEMs.

Ricoh / Pentax has every right, of course, to close access to the K-mount so that only licensed partners can develop for it. But in doing so it would lose a portion of existing and future customers - cutting off it's nose to spite its face, so to speak. Until it offers a ridiculously-complete lens line-up at very affordable prices, then Sigma's products are going to be attractive to many, and - if anything - a contributing factor to Ricoh / Pentax's success. Without access to those lenses, some people just wouldn't buy Pentax, or you'd hear even more griping about the lack of available glass.

EDIT: One thing we do agree on with this subject... I do think Sigma (and other manufacturers) should state that their products are designed to be compatible with certain cameras, but are not officially-licensed products. That way the buyer can make an informed choice

Last edited by BigMackCam; 08-12-2016 at 08:23 AM.
08-12-2016, 08:18 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Several people have mentioned Sigma not "licensing" their lenses with Pentax, etc. I asked earlier if that was even an option, but did not get any response. Again, is that even an option? I'm asking you normhead, since you mentioned it most recently.

Does anybody have any hard information about it? I've never heard of Pentax offering "licensing" for 3rd-party lenses, short of a full re-brand, in which case it's more like Pentax is licensing the lens from a 3rd party.

In regards to the main point of your post, I strongly disagree. Aftermarket suppliers are a big part of nearly any hobby, from photography to cars. Competitors light the fire of competition under each other, and the end-user benefits.
We do know Pentax licensed SMC coatings etc., and while I've heard Sigma reverse engineers the mount.... I've not heard the same for others, so, Samyang, Tamron etc. may be getting off the hook at least in my opinion, because we don't know. But looking at the lenses licensing etc. between Tamron and Pentax it's safe to assume Pentax has a much better relationship with Tamron.

The list of lenses I get when searching for Sigma 18-250 includes Sigma 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 DC or Sigma DL Zoom 75-300mm F4-5.6 or Sigma 70-300mm F4-5.6 Macro or Sigma 55-200mm F4-5.6 DC.

Searching for specific images from specific lenses, the Sigma identifier can't tell my isa an image was taken with my 18-250 or my 70-300.

When I search on my Tamron 17-50 I get one lens...Tamron AF 17-50mm F2.8 XR Di-II LD (Model A16) including the model number, not just a wild guess at what it might be. There is a whole different level of compatibility there. Maybe it's just these lenses, I don't know for sure. I do know for sure it's just the Sigma lenses that can't identify themselves, of the lenses I own.

Check this out... taken with my Sigma 70 macro... wrong lens, right focal length. Reverse engineering at it's best. I don't even own a 30mm ƒ1.4, of any description.


So there certainly is evidence that Tamron product is licensed and is receiving individual Pentax registered I.D. numbers for it's lenses, and Sigma isn't.

Pentax is much nicer than I would be. Were I Pentax every Sigma lens would be "unlicensed lens" and nothing more. This way, I can search on Sigma 30 1.4 if I want to see my Sigma 70 macro images, although I do wonder what would happen if i ever bought a Sigma 30 ƒ1.4.

Tamron on the other hand.... completely accurate exif, including model number.



Last edited by normhead; 08-12-2016 at 08:42 AM.
08-12-2016, 08:27 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The list of lenses I get when searching for Sigma 18-250 includes Sigma 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 DC or Sigma DL Zoom 75-300mm F4-5.6 or Sigma 70-300mm F4-5.6 Macro or Sigma 55-200mm F4-5.6 DC.

Searching for specific images from specific lenses, the Sigma identifier can't tell my isa an image was taken with my 18-250 or my 70-300.

When I search on my Tamron 17-50 I get one lens...Tamron AF 17-50mm F2.8 XR Di-II LD (Model A16) including the model number, not just a wild guess at what it might be. There is a whole different level of compatibility there.
What are you searching in, Norm? Lightroom or similar?

I only have two Sigma lenses - the 17-50 f/2.8 and the 18-300. Both are identified every time by LR6...
08-12-2016, 08:28 AM   #40
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So given that we don't know that there actually is an avenue for Sigma to "license" the K-mount, it's not a fair criticism of them, IMO.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
When I search on my Tamron 17-50 I get one lens...Tamron AF 17-50mm F2.8 XR Di-II LD (Model A16) including the model number, not just a wild guess at what it might be. There is a whole different level of compatibility there. Maybe it's just these lenses, I don't know for sure. I do know for sure it's just the Sigma lenses that can't identify themselves, of the lenses I own.
This has been discussed in the past, and according to people who were more knowledgeable than me, it seems that the lens contains an identification code, which should correspond to a list of codes in the body, which the body then translates into a lens model and puts it in the EXIF data. So for lenses to be identified correctly, it requires the lens maker and body maker to work together.

There would be no reason for SIgma to not want their lenses identified in EXIF data (quite the contrary, I would think), so I imagine that Pentax has not been completely cooperative in this regard.
08-12-2016, 08:32 AM   #41
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There is no license for the K-mount specifically, I don't think; Pentax never closed it - they made it public use from the beginning. That being the case (if correct), there is a supposed set of standards for the mount, including a supposed maximum diameter at the mount face, which some Sigma lenses slightly exceed with a spacer plate. It is a matter of Sigma accepting the published specifications and building lenses that don't cause precisely the problems that keep coming up.

That doesn't mean there aren't patent protections associated with electronic communication elements of the KAFx mounts.

Several Sigma lenses return the identical lens ID in EXIF. Cameras misunderstanding which Sigma lens is mounted is not limited to Pentax. Has already been discussed.
08-12-2016, 08:37 AM - 1 Like   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So there certainly is evidence that Tamron product is licensed and is receiving individual Pentax registered I.D. numbers for it's lenses, and Sigma isn't.
It could be evidence of some kind of relationship, or it could just as easily be evidence that Pentax decided to stop cooperating with Sigma because they felt like they were costing them sales. Or it could be something completely mundane, like maybe there used to be someone at Pentax that went to the trouble of making sure all lenses were completely identified, but that person is no longer there and nobody really takes the trouble anymore.

Here's a list of lens ID's used in Pentax bodies...there are a lot of Sigma lenses on that list, but not the 70mm macro you mentioned.

Pentax Tags

I have no idea if the lens is up to date or not, but it does include the Q lenses, so it can't be too old.

Last edited by Edgar_in_Indy; 08-12-2016 at 08:43 AM.
08-12-2016, 08:41 AM   #43
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Thanks for posting that link, Edgar. Very interesting!
08-12-2016, 08:44 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
When I search on my Tamron 17-50 I get one lens...Tamron AF 17-50mm F2.8 XR Di-II LD (Model A16) including the model number, not just a wild guess at what it might be. There is a whole different level of compatibility there. Maybe it's just these lenses, I don't know for sure. I do know for sure it's just the Sigma lenses that can't identify themselves, of the lenses I own.
It is not just Sigma. For an authoritative list of known codes*, the ExifTool Pentax tag reference is useful (). On the list are multiple examples of ambiguous ids as well as attempts to spoof Pentax models. Culprits include Sigma (duh), Tokina, Pentax (certain Takumar-F) , Tamron, Samsung/Schneider, and Cosina.


Steve

* I don't believe the list is exhaustive given the number of brands that are simply not listed (Vivitar, Quantaray, etc.) and have no idea what codes those lenses pass. I also noticed several popular lenses (most of Sigma's macro line) that are missing as well.

Last edited by stevebrot; 08-12-2016 at 08:52 AM.
08-12-2016, 08:50 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Here's a list of lens ID's used in Pentax bodies...there are a lot of Sigma lenses on that list, but not the 70mm macro you mentioned.

Pentax Tags

I have no idea if the lens is up to date or not, but it does include the Q lenses, so it can't be too old.
You beat me to it by a couple of minutes. The ExifTool maker-specific tags are considered to be authoritative, though not necessarily complete and are up-to-date within the limits of the current ExifTool version.


Steve
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