Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
07-14-2018, 09:10 PM   #1
New Member




Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 4
manual mode: EV +/- , multi-exposure composite

Greetings,

Just started playing with my new K-70, first DSLR.

Pardon if these are amateur questions.

1.) I noticed when attempting to adjust EV compensation in manual mode that there is no indicator on live view nor the viewfinder overlay of any adjustment, however the camera menu takes any input I give.

Further, I don't see any difference in photos taken. I assume I'm just meant to adjust all factors in the exposure triangle myself - sensitivity, aperture and shutter speed - but then why does the camera's firmware permit EV +/- button to function in manual mode?

2.) I attempted to test all three (additive, average and bright) composite exposure shooting with a 3-image base in a dark park with bright lamps
My goal being to have some definition in the brightest portion of the image without underexposing the background and save myself time and sweat in photoshop.

I was hoping I could do something similar when shooting sunsets to retain some of the defintion and/or outline of the sun/lamp/light source... is bracketing mode a better alternative? HDR shooting? If anyone has a process I can practice, I would love to hear tips. Thanks!

finally, Is there a way to view each individual component shot of the composites? I didn't see any on the SD card nor in the packaged software viewer on PC.

3.) Program Line mode - did some research on this - I most often shoot at evening sailboat races, and the sun sets and lighting changes rapidly. I'd like to be able to easily/automatically retain a good exposure as the sunlight fades, and retain my aperture settings for depth of field since I'm out in a "landscape" environment, adjusting only to take portraits. shutter speed is less important. Is program line or Av mode the best to use here? I suppose I could do what I did on my last point and shoot camera and use EV bracketing, but as per 1.) I'm scratching my head over whether this even functions in manual shooting....


Thanks so much in advance! I'm thrilled with the camera's reliability, weatherproofing, and the lens quality... just barely tested out a hand-me-down K-1000 1:2 55mm lens which has some very cool macro/depth of field capabilities at wider apertures.

07-14-2018, 11:38 PM   #2
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
Welcome to the Pentax Forums!

I don't have a K-70 in hand, but since operation of recent model dSLR is essentially similar, I may be able to answer your questions.
QuoteOriginally posted by Emirena Quote
1.) I noticed when attempting to adjust EV compensation in manual mode that there is no indicator on live view nor the viewfinder overlay of any adjustment, however the camera menu takes any input I give.
In M mode (assuming you are using a modern lens with contacts on the mount), an EV bar scale should be present both on the rear LCD and in the viewfinder. Centering the indicator will provide the meter-recommended exposure. When EC has been set, the recommended exposure reflects that setting.

Live mode exposure emulation should show an estimation of the actual exposure such that if -2 stops EC was indicated with a centered bar, the viewfinder should appear darker than if no EC was set.

QuoteOriginally posted by Emirena Quote
2.) I attempted to test all three (additive, average and bright) composite exposure shooting with a 3-image base in a dark park with bright lamps...
I will defer comment on composite vs. in-camera HDR vs. bracketing except to say they may all be used to deal with your use case and that proper use of composite requires some practice. I prefer bracketing with merge done in post-processing for HDR and use the composite feature to "build" an image in-camera but not for usually for HDR.

QuoteOriginally posted by Emirena Quote
3.) Program Line mode -
In the simplest sense, the program line affects programmed auto-exposure (you set nothing) and does not affect any other exposure mode. Getting more complicated:
  • The HyperProgram feature of P mode (override of aperture, shutter speed, or ISO) does not use the program line
  • Auto ISO (any mode) also does not use the program line; it has its own rules
  • The green button will generally reference the program line by default, but this behavior may be overruled by menu setting
  • Various button actions may be defined by mode to use the program line by menu setting
The program line may be used to influence how changes are prioritized (DOF vs. freezing action), but is a pretty blunt tool if one wants to maintain a particular aperture or aperture range. Being that I very rarely use P mode, I leave mine set to "normal". :o (edit: not pertinent to K-70) If one needs control over aperture in changing light and AE is needed, Av (auto ISO on) or TAv may work for you.*

QuoteOriginally posted by Emirena Quote
just barely tested out a hand-me-down K-1000 1:2 55mm lens which has some very cool macro/depth of field capabilities at wider apertures.
Be aware that if one is using the aperture ring on an older K-mount lens to set aperture, the option for exposure automation is no longer available (the lens will stop down in M, B, and X modes only) and metering is limited to so-called stop-down measurement.



Steve

* I hesitate to recommend auto-ISO because I feel it is evil, but sometimes evil is necessary.

Last edited by stevebrot; 07-16-2018 at 12:15 PM.
07-14-2018, 11:48 PM   #3
Pentaxian
Fogel70's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,882
EV comp is only used for automated exposure, so in manual mode it is only used if you FI turned on auto-ISO or is using green button.
I use EV comp for spot metering in manual mode, where I set EV comp depending on what to meter on, point the spot meter on what to meter on and then press green button to set exposure.

Program line is only used in program mode, and preferrable used in P-mode with P-shift. If using Hyper-P mode you will exit P-mode once you change exposure and enter Av- or Tv-mode, disabling program line.
It does not seem as you will benefit much from program line. Just use Av mode and set aperture. If shutter speed get too slow change to TAv and set both aperture and shutter speed.
07-15-2018, 06:26 AM   #4
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
twilhelm's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Florida
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,597
If you are using a modern lens, or one with the “A” setting on the aperture ring, use the camera in AV mode to maintain your aperture. I frequently use bracketing with the maximum spread in difficult lighting and when time is a priority.

Enjoy the K70!

07-15-2018, 06:29 AM   #5
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,367
1) EV compensation is misnamed because what it really does is to adjust the meter's reading, not the shutter/aperture/ISO exposure itself. The camera then uses the compensated meter reading either to set the exposure in any of the auto-exposure modes (P, Av, Tv, TAv, or Sv) or to display the amount of over-exposure/under-exposure in M mode. In manual mode, EV compensation does work but it does so by adjusting the over-exposure/under-exposure indications.

2) the composite exposure feature is more useful for moving or change scenes rather than for unchanging ones. The HDR modes and bracketing modes are what you can to use to create a set of images at different exposures tailored from the brighter and darker elements of the scene.
07-15-2018, 02:53 PM   #6
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
pschlute's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,032
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
EV compensation is misnamed because what it really does is to adjust the meter's reading, not the shutter/aperture/ISO exposure itself. The camera then uses the compensated meter reading either to set the exposure in any of the auto-exposure modes (P, Av, Tv, TAv, or Sv) or to display the amount of over-exposure/under-exposure in M mode. In manual mode, EV compensation does work but it does so by adjusting the over-exposure/under-exposure indications.
Not sure I follow you here. In the auto modes we don't see a reading from the camera meter. If we dial in +1 EV we get 1 stop overexposure via shutter; aperture; or ISO (or a combination) depending on exposure mode. How the camera arrives at that +1 is surely irrelevant?

In Manual exposure mode (K1 at least), any exposure compensation adjusts the meter central point, so we adjust the exposure triangle controls ourselves until the meter reads central , same as if we were not using any compensation.
07-15-2018, 04:37 PM   #7
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,367
QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Not sure I follow you here. In the auto modes we don't see a reading from the camera meter. If we dial in +1 EV we get 1 stop overexposure via shutter; aperture; or ISO (or a combination) depending on exposure mode. How the camera arrives at that +1 is surely irrelevant?

In Manual exposure mode (K1 at least), any exposure compensation adjusts the meter central point, so we adjust the exposure triangle controls ourselves until the meter reads central , same as if we were not using any compensation.
Yes, but here's how I look at it:

In M mode, the meter takes a reading, shifts it by the exposure compensation value and shows it to the photographer. Next, the photographer adjusts the exposure triangle controls (in accordance with the photographer's goals) until the meter reads central.

In any of the auto modes, the meter takes a reading, shifts it by the exposure compensation value and shows it to the camera's auto-exposure algorithm. Next, the camera adjusts the exposure triangle controls (in accordance with the auto mode algorithm) until the meter reads central.

In both cases, it is as if the exposure compensation value adjusted the meter reading which then affects the exposure decision process by either the photographer or the camera's algorithm.
07-15-2018, 07:39 PM   #8
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
EV comp is only used for automated exposure, so in manual mode it is only used if you FI turned on auto-ISO or is using green button.
You might want to double check that...Assuming you mean exposure compensation.* To avoid confusion, I usually abbreviate as EC...
  1. Manually set your desired exposure in M mode with EC = 0
  2. Change EC to -3 stops
  3. Notice that the EV bar display is no longer where you left it
  4. Change EC back to 0 and note that the bar display is as it was in step #1
FWIW, there is no auto ISO in M mode on any Pentax dSLR. Higher models simply disallow. Consumer models fail over to TAv mode.


Steve

* As @photoptimist noted above, the use of the term EV comp by the manual is both confusing and not accurate. Historically the term was exposure compensation. The feature was added to allow easy meter biasing with AE cameras way back when I was still below voting age. On metered manual cameras the feature would be silly and as such is generally missing on full manual cameras like the MX. A side effect is that exposure compensation generally (always?) applies to both AE and metered manual modes when all three features are present. Such is the case with Pentax dSLRs and with the AE film SLRs on my shelf.


Last edited by stevebrot; 07-15-2018 at 07:54 PM.
07-15-2018, 07:56 PM   #9
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
In both cases, it is as if the exposure compensation value adjusted the meter reading which then affects the exposure decision process by either the photographer or the camera's algorithm.
Yep...on film SLRs, the relationship between exposure compensation and the meter is often obvious in that exposure comp dial was generally coupled to the film speed dial.


Steve
07-15-2018, 08:02 PM   #10
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
If we dial in +1 EV we get 1 stop overexposure via shutter; aperture; or ISO (or a combination) depending on exposure mode. How the camera arrives at that +1 is surely irrelevant?
Yes, that is surely the case, though things get messy in M mode or when in certain cases when bracketing where the underlying mechanism is exposed for what it is. (Exposure compensation provides the core logic for the bracket drive mode.) That is where the term EV compensation fails. It is not the EV (settings combination of shutter/aperture) that is shifted, it is the meter reading that drives EV that is shifted.


Steve
07-16-2018, 12:08 AM   #11
Pentaxian
Fogel70's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,882
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You might want to double check that...Assuming you mean exposure compensation.* To avoid confusion, I usually abbreviate as EC...
EV comp and EC means the same thing and has been used interchangeable over the years, so I do not see why that should cause confusion. I believe some manufactures of cameras use the term "exposure compensation" and others use "EV compensation". I some ways I think "EV compensation" is better to use as it affect the EV-bar that is connected to the meter. It is not the actual exposure that is affected.

My Pentax ME Super has EC, but it labeled as 4x, 2x, 1x, 1/2x, 1/4x, which show how much the exposure is affected.
When the settings are +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, EV compensation works better as the unit is in EV. +2 EV, +1 EV....

QuoteQuote:
  1. Manually set your desired exposure in M mode with EC = 0
  2. Change EC to -3 stops
  3. Notice that the EV bar display is no longer where you left it
  4. Change EC back to 0 and note that the bar display is as it was in step #1
And notice that during this time there has been no change on exposure settings. EV comp during manual exposure only adjust meter (EV bar) and it is up to the use to follow it or not. I believe most users do not use EV comp for this in manual mode, as it require one extra step in setting exposure. It is easier to just to adjust exposure and check EV-bar on how for from camera meter you have set exposure.
QuoteQuote:
FWIW, there is no auto ISO in M mode on any Pentax dSLR. Higher models simply disallow. Consumer models fail over to TAv mode.
As long as you are in M-mode and apply auto-ISO, you are using M-mode with auto exposure. I do not see any of the camera that allow auto-ISO in M-mode switch mode dial to TAv when auto-ISO is switched on.

Steve
QuoteQuote:
* As @photoptimist noted above, the use of the term EV comp by the manual is both confusing and not accurate. Historically the term was exposure compensation. The feature was added to allow easy meter biasing with AE cameras way back when I was still below voting age. On metered manual cameras the feature would be silly and as such is generally missing on full manual cameras like the MX. A side effect is that exposure compensation generally (always?) applies to both AE and metered manual modes when all three features are present. Such is the case with Pentax dSLRs and with the AE film SLRs on my shelf.
I believe you misunderstood photoptimist. As I read him, any term that include "exposure" are misnamed as it is the meter that is compensated. Both "EV comp" and "EC" are misnamed by this definition.

Pentax use the term "EV compensation" in their manuals and GUI. See below from K70 manual.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Fogel70; 07-16-2018 at 02:01 AM.
07-16-2018, 09:57 AM   #12
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
And notice that during this time there has been no change on exposure settings.
It being manual mode, that would be the case, but the feature is still active. Whether it is useful is another matter.


Steve
07-16-2018, 10:18 AM   #13
New Member




Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 4
Original Poster
Thanks for clearing up the EV vs EC confusion. I was trying to find more information on how to use and read the EV meter in different conditions but the manual is not so helpful. Screenshot helped. Green button just resets to defaults, correct? The insight that EC dial was oft. linked to film speed control on film SLRs makes a lot of sense.

I ended up shooting some daytime sailing photos in Av mode depending on whether I wanted to focus on subjects on my boat (1-10M distance) or distant ones. I used continuous shooting since there's so much action, but didn't try bracketing because the exposure looked decent with ISO 400-800 (and for fear of filling up my memory card). I did seem to very slightly underexpose most photos, but preferred not losing the cloud definition on the hazy, bright sky and horizon. It's tough to expose for dark water and harsh sunlight. Shadow compensation level 2 seemed to help reduce facial shadows on people. I just processed any RAW files (or double processed and photoshopped a composite) to retain exposure for both sky and people/boats.

So far so good besides some mis-focused photos at wide aperture and some lack of defintion/contrast/focus ability for subjects at extreme distances with longer focal length and narrow aperture: 07/15/2018 Ron-bo: First Blood | Flickr

Is there a flowchart or better explanation of the user interface for P-Line mode and program modes? It's not so intuitive. Does P mode retain exposure value as shutter speed or aperture are adjusted, too?

for what it's worth I don't trust auto ISO or auto exposure of any kind. tested exposure lock function but it seems to only hold for one shot, and must be for use with auto exposure. Guessing I should ignore Exposure lock for most cases.

I did use manual mode exclusively when shooting indoors to try out the 35mm lens from the K-1000. Exposure was touchy but I was in terrible indoor tungsten lighting. Managed to (finally) properly expose for a 1.5" shutter time for practice to get a nice symmetrical motion blur on a clock pendulum, just to see if I could. Invested in a white balance card for any more indoor shooting I do, AWB is terrible as is the tungsten compensation (to be expected).

Thanks again! I'm already loving the K-70, but it's quite a sack of potatos and I managed to scratch the lens ring edge a little already. Heavy duty chest strap I purchased ( amazon.com : Voking VK-Q5 Camera Universal Shoulder Neck Strap Belt Adjustable Comfortable Quick Release Safety Tether for DSLR Camera : Camera & Photo?tag=pentaxforums-20& ) hangs it a little too low for my liking, even maximally tightened, where it can bash into things. Going to have to figure out better protection, perhaps stuffing it in the camera bag whenever I'm not shooting.
07-16-2018, 10:43 AM   #14
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I believe you misunderstood photoptimist. As I read him, any term that include "exposure" are misnamed as it is the meter that is compensated. Both "EV comp" and "EC" are misnamed by this definition.
I believe I understand him fairly well and while his complaint is a fine point, I agree. EV traditionally (say back 50+ years) refers to the open-ended numeric scale representing combinations of shutter speed and aperture that result in the same amount of light during exposure. Exposure is quite literally exposure. EV is unrelated to metering or film/sensor sensitivity.* Exposure compensation, OTOH, is a camera feature the user to transparently bias the meter for a series of over/under exposed images. The term "EV compensation" is inaccurate in that while the EV may be shifted, it is the exposure meter that is being compensated.

Yes, "EV compensation" is the term used in Pentax dSLR manuals since the *istD. I can't confirm for the *ist film camera, but I do believe that the manuals for all Pentax film bodies from the MZ series back to the ME use the term "Exposure compensation" as does the KMP Web site (all models including digital). Goggle "EV Compensation" and the results indicate the term being used in some tutorials and specifically in regards to Pentax and Nikon cameras. One tutorial even uses the term "EV exposure compensation"...go figure...

Amazingly, the manual for the Pentax K2 uses "Exposure factor" to describe the dial used to bias its meter, a very appropriate term that avoids the traditional usage of EC and accurately describes the action of the setting...at least for automatic exposure mode.


Steve

* Early on, it became the norm with TTL bodies to define meter coupling (i.e. linear sensitivity range) in terms of EV with the meter set at ISO 100 with a fast normal lens attached. By extension EV100 came to commonly be used as an estimate of subject brightness for multiple purposes. In recent years there has been a move to use the term "Light Value" (LV) in preference to EV when used as a measure of brightness; LV being equivalent to EV100.

Last edited by stevebrot; 07-16-2018 at 11:10 AM.
07-16-2018, 11:08 AM   #15
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 30,093
QuoteOriginally posted by Emirena Quote
Thanks for clearing up the EV vs EC confusion. I was trying to find more information on how to use and read the EV meter in different conditions but the manual is not so helpful.
Sorry for hijacking your question. Part of the confusion is that very similar "EV bar scale" displays are used for both exposure setting information and for setting/showing exposure compensation (EV comp). Which is displayed (if any) depends on mode and which display is being viewed. Time with the camera helps to keep straight which is which.

Just how exposure compensation behaves in M mode and and other settings such as bracketed exposures is often not obvious, but again, time and experience with the camera helps. There is seldom any penalty for fiddling.

FWIW, my use of exposure compensation is sporadic and I find that it is easy to forget to set it back to zero. For that reason, I have my camera set so that exposure compensation settings are not saved when the camera is turned off. For this reason, many users on this site have a custom user mode set up with +2 compensation set.


Steve
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aperture, beginner, camera, ev, exposure, exposure compensation, exposure value, field, k-70, k70, lens, line, manual mode, mode, pentax k-70, program, view
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K50 EV compensation defaults to -5 in Manual mode, but only in Manual agatchell Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 7 04-02-2018 07:30 PM
Multi-Exposure & Interval Composite: EXIF & Metering? Doundounba Pentax DSLR Discussion 2 06-11-2017 11:45 AM
K-1 EV in manual mode rickclick Pentax K-1 14 01-28-2017 11:47 AM
A typically manual exposure guy trying out Program exposure mode goatsNdonkey Photographic Technique 9 06-23-2016 07:16 PM
K-3 multi exposure and interval composite Painter Pentax K-3 33 10-30-2014 10:47 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:34 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top