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04-21-2019, 02:06 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
All brands release feature complete products.



I like both my k-s1 and x100
I would like an X-T30. But to be honest I'm very happy learning on my K-70 just now. And I like all the old Pentax lenses.

04-21-2019, 02:09 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mccririck Quote
I would like an X-T30. But to be honest I'm very happy learning on my K-70 just now. And I like all the old Pentax lenses.
From all the reviews on the internet, xt30 seems like a home run for fuji. But im an OVF only guy and x100 sings that song for me
04-21-2019, 02:22 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
All brands release feature complete products.
I guess one would have to have access to the product MRD, PRD,* and bug tracking system to know that with any confidence. I don't, so perhaps you are correct.


Steve

* Marketing Requirements Document, Product Requirements Document
04-21-2019, 02:31 PM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
All brands release feature complete products.
If that were true, firmware upgrades would only contain bug fixes and not new features.





04-21-2019, 02:34 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If that were true, firmware upgrades would only contain bug fixes and not new features.
Look at it this way. There's always deadlines for new products. Fuji add new features to products they have already released. Some other camera companies would just save those features for the next model...
04-21-2019, 02:56 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by mccririck Quote
Look at it this way. There's always deadlines for new products.
Sure, I understand it, MC, (I'm in IT) you need to explain that to Trickortreat!
04-21-2019, 03:24 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If that were true, firmware upgrades would only contain bug fixes and not new features.
You mean sort of like the firmware updates history for most Pentax dSLRs?

QuoteOriginally posted by mccririck Quote
Look at it this way. There's always deadlines for new products. Fuji add new features to products they have already released. Some other camera companies would just save those features for the next model...
You bring up several good points. Yes, there are always product release deadlines, but those are often (almost always?) allowed to slip (e.g. D FA* 50mm f/1.4 wunderlens) and in some cases, the project is killed (Pentax MZ-D). That is why Pentax and their competitors don't announce release dates until the product is (apparently) already in the warehouses ready to ship. In regards to deferring features for a later product model, that may happen in cases where a dependency on a tardy outside vendor exists, but more likely is that the feature is cancelled outright for that model. If it is considered for a later product, the merits would be addressed anew by that team with full consideration to the options available at that point in time.

Below is a quoted release statement from the K10D firmware update page (LINK). I was a second wave owner of that model after the first production run sold out worldwide and performed this update (v1.10) in March 2007 soon after taking delivery and charging the battery. The list items are almost all new features and is a little scary and enlightening since many (most? all?) of the behaviors are typical of how things work today...
QuoteQuote:
Changes to V1.10

The following function has been added in version 1.10
  • Wireless control of external flash through built-in flash.
  • Instantly return to centre AF point by one push of button in AF select mode.
  • Possible to change ISO setting by dial at TV/AV mode.
  • ISO setting change by dial while the ISO setting is being displayed on the LCD by pushing OK button.
  • Green button function in M mode is available at TAv mode (Hyper manual).
  • AV and TV switch by dial at P mode.
  • Instant return to the default value by green button at strobe light compensation.
.
.
.
Most of those appear have the appearance of core functionality deferred at release, particularly the ability to act as Master/Controller for P-TTL flash, it being a flagship body and all.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-21-2019 at 03:30 PM.
04-21-2019, 03:33 PM   #23
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Off course there will be some features which are not quite up to scratch at release date but which do not necessitate a delay in releasing the product.

04-21-2019, 04:14 PM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Sure, I understand it, MC, (I'm in IT) you need to explain that to Trickortreat!
Why does he needs to explain it to me. Im perfectly aware of that. Youre the one that seems confused bout it.

---------- Post added 04-22-19 at 01:16 AM ----------

If a product has all the features advertised at release - it is feature complete.
New features and performance boosts are just a bonus.
04-21-2019, 04:27 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
If a product has all the features advertised at release - it is feature complete.
No, because the release specs get modified to leave out features that were intended but lack of testing meant they did not make the commercial release time.

I have a Sony A7 that got a video bitrate upgrade and a K-1 that finally got 1:1 crop in the OVF, while the GR III cannot actually do WiFi right now, it's waiting on a new version of ImageSync.

Products ship all the time incomplete or with bugs. Hence the industry term 'showstopper'.
04-21-2019, 04:35 PM - 1 Like   #26
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So not a single tech product is feature complete because i constantly get new updates that give new features and speed boosts to:
My pc
My tv
My smartphone
And so on...

Release specs are the only one that matter. Consumers buy products by release spec. Not some spec that engineers came up with and never made the light of day as an end product.

Features that are left behind are left behind, no reason to worry about them. We dont even know they existed in the first place
And if we get them one day as an update - thats great - thats going beyond product release spec sheet...

Last edited by Trickortreat; 04-22-2019 at 12:54 AM.
04-22-2019, 09:25 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
All brands release feature complete products.
So, the only firmware updates they should need are bug fixes.

I'm a retired Software Engineer, including some time writing "embedded software" {'firmware'}.
Once a product was approved for shipping, I went on to something else.
If lab equipment or a digital radio 'firmware' needed an update, it meant I had goofed, as had the testing team.

Last edited by reh321; 04-22-2019 at 09:31 AM.
04-22-2019, 02:01 PM - 1 Like   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
So, the only firmware updates they should need are bug fixes.
Yes and no... depends... simple products get only bug fixes. More complex ones get updates that change the release feature set and specs.
Its not all black and white.
04-22-2019, 06:42 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
So not a single tech product is feature complete because i constantly get new updates that give new features and speed boosts to:
My pc
My tv
My smartphone
And so on...

Release specs are the only one that matter. Consumers buy products by release spec. Not some spec that engineers came up with and never made the light of day as an end product.

Features that are left behind are left behind, no reason to worry about them. We dont even know they existed in the first place
??

Did you not see the examples presented to you? What do you call the GR III that doesn't work with WiFi at the moment? What's on its spec sheet?
04-22-2019, 07:21 PM   #30
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There are companies that support hardware with software updates for years, like Apple.

Apple keep releasing iOS updates for my 6-year-old iPhone 5s, which can run 2019's iOS 12.2.

I don't choose to update because iOS v 12 is much more resource hungry than iOS 10, which I'm still using very happily. But Apple gives me the choice if some or other app requires iOS 11 or newer. This definitely helps keep me loyal to the iPhone brand (I own no other Apple product).

So it is possible, where the hardware permits and the company has the necessary will. But I suspect Ricoh doesn't have sufficient resources and/or the will to update older cameras even if the hardware allowed it, e.g. a KAF4 update for the K-5 series.
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