Dual-dial useless in manual mode with K and M lens series.

Leoi · 01-17-2017, 07:31 PM

I think this one is easy to fix.

When using K and M series lenses with my K-3 II in manual mode, it is not possible to use both dual wheels simultaneously to manage iso and shutter speed (as the aperture must be manually selected). The user has to alternate between them with the ISO button, making the handling more clumsy.

Adding a function in the E-Dial Programming menu that allows using both dials at the same time in manual mode would be deeply appreciated.

Last edited by Leoi; 01-17-2017 at 07:52 PM.

**jpzk** · 01-17-2017, 08:26 PM

Leoi · 01-17-2017, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by jpzk

I think Tav is not possible with lens that does not have the "A" function.

**Digitalis** · 01-19-2017, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Leoi

I think Tav is not possible with lens that does not have the "A" function.

Correct. However, how do you propose to be able to hand hold a camera correctly while your thumb and forefinger are engaged with the control dials? are you a polydact?*

* The German composer Arnold Schoenberg once wrote a piano concerto based on a 12 tone row. Some of the chords in the work were said to be impossible, only playable by a pianist with 12 fingers to which Arnold replied: "I can wait for that".

Last edited by Digitalis; 01-19-2017 at 01:06 AM.

Leoi · 01-19-2017, 12:33 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Digitalis

Correct. However, how do you propose to be able to hand hold a camera correctly while your thumb and forefinger are engaged with the control dials? are you a polydact?*

* The German composer Arnold Schoenberg once wrote a piano concerto based on a 12 tone row. Some of the chords in the work were said to be impossible, only playable by a pianist with 12 fingers to which Arnold replied: "I can wait for that".

Like this?

I don't know if I made myself clear: I meant that having to press the ISO button to change either the shutter speed or the ISO is dumb when having 2 dials, so each one can be assigned to each function.

bertwert · 01-19-2017, 12:38 PM

Wouldn't Tv mode with one dial set to ISO and one to shutter work?
Or does the camera then change that to TAv mode with a manual lens?

Leoi · 01-19-2017, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by bertwert

Wouldn't Tv mode with one dial set to ISO and one to shutter work?
Or does the camera then change that to TAv mode with a manual lens?

Tv is changed to Av with a manual lens.

In fact, also P, Sv and TAv

**jpzk** · 01-19-2017, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Leoi

I think Tav is not possible with lens that does not have the "A" function.

Indeed ... my bad!

stevebrot · 01-19-2017, 03:58 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Leoi

When using K and M series lenses with my K-3 II in manual mode, it is not possible to use both dual wheels simultaneously to manage iso and shutter speed (as the aperture must be manually selected). The user has to alternate between them with the ISO button, making the handling more clumsy.

Originally posted by Leoi

I think this one is easy to fix.

Sure, just allow mapping of ISO to the rear button in M mode, but only when a vintage lens is mounted.

Now that is solved, we just need to convince Ricoh that there will be some ROI associated with creating the feature aside from making a single member of Pentax Forums happy. That last bit might sound a little abrupt, but to be honest, in almost 10 years on this site, I can't remember a similar request. I use M mode with non-A lenses a lot and have never wished for such a feature, though now when the suggestion has been made, I concede that it has an allure. In the same vein, so does adding the option of Sv-shift for green button.

Steve

**monochrome** · 01-19-2017, 04:33 PM

I've followed this thread a bit and wondered why shifting the rear dial mode with the ISO button is such a big deal. I've been doing it without complaint since the K10D, I think, so since fall 2006 or so. But I wondered what was wrong with me so I didn't say anything.

In point of fact I shoot mostly manual lenses (I think I have only 4 modern lenses) using a single, fixed ISO ( like, uh, FILM). Once my aperture and shutter speed are set I leave them alone until the light changes.

I guess I haven't wanted to change ISO often enough to notice.

**Digitalis** · 01-19-2017, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

In point of fact I shoot mostly manual lenses (I think I have only 4 modern lenses) using a single, fixed ISO ( like, uh, FILM). Once my aperture and shutter speed are set I leave them alone until the light changes.

we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things!

....sorry, I couldn't help myself.

**monochrome** · 01-19-2017, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things!

....sorry, I couldn't help myself.

I think my digital camera can do all the things, but sometimes I must touch a button first.

Not a Number · 01-19-2017, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Sure, just allow mapping of ISO to the rear button in M mode, but only when a vintage lens is mounted.

Now that is solved, we just need to convince Ricoh that there will be some ROI associated with creating the feature aside from making a single member of Pentax Forums happy. That last bit might sound a little abrupt, but to be honest, in almost 10 years on this site, I can't remember a similar request.

It's a good idea but chances of it getting implemented are close to nil. I don't think anybody should devote a lot of time, emotion or energy on this.

Besides not all the Pentax bodies have two eDials or ISO buttons. On my K10D there is no ISO button. I press and hold the OK button and use the front eDial change the ISO. It is no more or less clumsy than having to move my thumb from one of the back buttons to the rear eDial.

photoptimist · 01-19-2017, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things!

....sorry, I couldn't help myself.

It may be a joke but it's true.

I'm surprised that ISO is still treated like a second-class citizen in camera UIs -- it feels like a holdover from the days of film when ISO was only changed once every 36 exposures if that. But todays high-DR cameras offer about as much range of usable stops in ISO (e.g., 100-3200 = 6 usable stops) as most lenses (e.g., f/2.8 to f/16).

I'd love a camera with four equally-functional control wheels for speed, aperture, ISO, and EV compensation (most of the time I've got the K-1's third wheel set to ISO but the K-1 3rd wheel is a bit stiff).

stevebrot · 01-19-2017, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things!

....sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Including coffee...

Steve

(...my pet peeve...Pentax K should be K-cup centric...)

01-17-2017, 07:31 PM	#1
Leoi Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Lima Posts: 49	Dual-dial useless in manual mode with K and M lens series. I think this one is easy to fix. When using K and M series lenses with my K-3 II in manual mode, it is not possible to use both dual wheels simultaneously to manage iso and shutter speed (as the aperture must be manually selected). The user has to alternate between them with the ISO button, making the handling more clumsy. Adding a function in the E-Dial Programming menu that allows using both dials at the same time in manual mode would be deeply appreciated. Last edited by Leoi; 01-17-2017 at 07:52 PM.

01-19-2017, 04:58 PM	#13
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Originally posted by stevebrot Sure, just allow mapping of ISO to the rear button in M mode, but only when a vintage lens is mounted. Now that is solved, we just need to convince Ricoh that there will be some ROI associated with creating the feature aside from making a single member of Pentax Forums happy. That last bit might sound a little abrupt, but to be honest, in almost 10 years on this site, I can't remember a similar request. It's a good idea but chances of it getting implemented are close to nil. I don't think anybody should devote a lot of time, emotion or energy on this. Besides not all the Pentax bodies have two eDials or ISO buttons. On my K10D there is no ISO button. I press and hold the OK button and use the front eDial change the ISO. It is no more or less clumsy than having to move my thumb from one of the back buttons to the rear eDial. Last edited by Not a Number; 01-19-2017 at 05:03 PM.

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01-17-2017, 08:26 PM	#2
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251

01-17-2017, 08:38 PM	#3
Leoi Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Lima Posts: 49 Original Poster	Originally posted by jpzk I think Tav is not possible with lens that does not have the "A" function.

01-19-2017, 12:57 AM	#4
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Leoi I think Tav is not possible with lens that does not have the "A" function. Correct. However, how do you propose to be able to hand hold a camera correctly while your thumb and forefinger are engaged with the control dials? are you a polydact?* * The German composer Arnold Schoenberg once wrote a piano concerto based on a 12 tone row. Some of the chords in the work were said to be impossible, only playable by a pianist with 12 fingers to which Arnold replied: "I can wait for that". Last edited by Digitalis; 01-19-2017 at 01:06 AM.

01-19-2017, 12:33 PM - 1 Like	#5
Leoi Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Lima Posts: 49 Original Poster	Originally posted by Digitalis Correct. However, how do you propose to be able to hand hold a camera correctly while your thumb and forefinger are engaged with the control dials? are you a polydact?* * The German composer Arnold Schoenberg once wrote a piano concerto based on a 12 tone row. Some of the chords in the work were said to be impossible, only playable by a pianist with 12 fingers to which Arnold replied: "I can wait for that". Like this? I don't know if I made myself clear: I meant that having to press the ISO button to change either the shutter speed or the ISO is dumb when having 2 dials, so each one can be assigned to each function.

01-19-2017, 12:38 PM	#6
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Wouldn't Tv mode with one dial set to ISO and one to shutter work? Or does the camera then change that to TAv mode with a manual lens?

01-19-2017, 12:42 PM	#7
Leoi Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Lima Posts: 49 Original Poster	Originally posted by bertwert Wouldn't Tv mode with one dial set to ISO and one to shutter work? Or does the camera then change that to TAv mode with a manual lens? Tv is changed to Av with a manual lens. In fact, also P, Sv and TAv

01-19-2017, 01:08 PM	#8
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	Originally posted by Leoi I think Tav is not possible with lens that does not have the "A" function. Indeed ... my bad!

01-19-2017, 03:58 PM - 1 Like	#9
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Leoi When using K and M series lenses with my K-3 II in manual mode, it is not possible to use both dual wheels simultaneously to manage iso and shutter speed (as the aperture must be manually selected). The user has to alternate between them with the ISO button, making the handling more clumsy. Originally posted by Leoi I think this one is easy to fix. Sure, just allow mapping of ISO to the rear button in M mode, but only when a vintage lens is mounted. Now that is solved, we just need to convince Ricoh that there will be some ROI associated with creating the feature aside from making a single member of Pentax Forums happy. That last bit might sound a little abrupt, but to be honest, in almost 10 years on this site, I can't remember a similar request. I use M mode with non-A lenses a lot and have never wished for such a feature, though now when the suggestion has been made, I concede that it has an allure. In the same vein, so does adding the option of Sv-shift for green button. Steve

01-19-2017, 04:33 PM	#10
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	I've followed this thread a bit and wondered why shifting the rear dial mode with the ISO button is such a big deal. I've been doing it without complaint since the K10D, I think, so since fall 2006 or so. But I wondered what was wrong with me so I didn't say anything. In point of fact I shoot mostly manual lenses (I think I have only 4 modern lenses) using a single, fixed ISO ( like, uh, FILM). Once my aperture and shutter speed are set I leave them alone until the light changes. I guess I haven't wanted to change ISO often enough to notice.

01-19-2017, 04:37 PM	#11
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by monochrome In point of fact I shoot mostly manual lenses (I think I have only 4 modern lenses) using a single, fixed ISO ( like, uh, FILM). Once my aperture and shutter speed are set I leave them alone until the light changes. we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things! ....sorry, I couldn't help myself.

01-19-2017, 04:43 PM	#12
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Digitalis we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things! ....sorry, I couldn't help myself. I think my digital camera can do all the things, but sometimes I must touch a button first.

01-19-2017, 05:17 PM	#14
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,122	Originally posted by Digitalis we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things! ....sorry, I couldn't help myself. It may be a joke but it's true. I'm surprised that ISO is still treated like a second-class citizen in camera UIs -- it feels like a holdover from the days of film when ISO was only changed once every 36 exposures if that. But todays high-DR cameras offer about as much range of usable stops in ISO (e.g., 100-3200 = 6 usable stops) as most lenses (e.g., f/2.8 to f/16). I'd love a camera with four equally-functional control wheels for speed, aperture, ISO, and EV compensation (most of the time I've got the K-1's third wheel set to ISO but the K-1 3rd wheel is a bit stiff).

01-19-2017, 05:51 PM	#15
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Digitalis we aren't using FILM we are using DIGITAL and DIGITAL should be able to do all the things! ....sorry, I couldn't help myself. Including coffee... Steve (...my pet peeve...Pentax K should be K-cup centric...)