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03-12-2017, 05:51 AM   #1
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K-1, electronic shutter in bulb mode please!

Since Ricoh seems to have ambitions in astrophoto, i canīt understand that this hasnīt been done already. They have added electronic shutter in live view, but not when using bulb mode.
Putting the K-1 on a 1000mm newtonian reflector, iīm stuck with 30s exposures with electronic shutter to avoid shutter induced blur.
Fix this ASAP Ricoh.

05-02-2017, 02:00 PM   #2
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I second the request. I also shoot K-1 on on 1016mm and 1200mm telescopes and shutter induced shake is a notable issue with brighter objects.
05-04-2017, 03:36 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lage Quote
Since Ricoh seems to have ambitions in astrophoto, i canīt understand that this hasnīt been done already. They have added electronic shutter in live view, but not when using bulb mode.
Putting the K-1 on a 1000mm newtonian reflector, iīm stuck with 30s exposures with electronic shutter to avoid shutter induced blur.
Fix this ASAP Ricoh.
Not a Ricoh solution, but use the old trick and put your hat in front of the scope when tripping the shutter. Keep the scope blocked just long enough for the shake to subside and then move your hat. Extend the exposure time by the hat time if you really want to be accurate about it.

Would be great if Ricoh takes care of this however and provides electronic shuttering (no shakes at all).
05-04-2017, 06:15 PM   #4
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There shouldn't be much shutter shock 12 seconds after triggering, I would have thought.

05-04-2017, 11:11 PM   #5
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I also doubt about blur coming for shutter shock for long exposures. At 1000mm and long exposure, there is necessarily a tracking structure, and that structure may not track perfectly.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-04-2017 at 11:16 PM.
05-05-2017, 07:59 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
There shouldn't be much shutter shock 12 seconds after triggering, I would have thought.
That's just the mirror that's locked up, not the shutter. In any case, unless they've done something silly with the k-1 you should be able to use mirror lock up in bulb mode for as much delay on the mirror as you like.


The shutter is a different issue. Not allowing electronic shutter in bulb mode seems like one of those silly "why on earth did they make it this way" things that's probably a relatively simple firmware fix. It would carry forward to future models and be worth it even if it's a relatively niche use. Already including things like the astro-tracer should make the K-1 a gateway drug camera for more intensive astro work, so it would be nice to cater to this crowd.
05-05-2017, 03:33 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
That's just the mirror that's locked up, not the shutter. In any case, unless they've done something silly with the k-1 you should be able to use mirror lock up in bulb mode for as much delay on the mirror as you like.


The shutter is a different issue. Not allowing electronic shutter in bulb mode seems like one of those silly "why on earth did they make it this way" things that's probably a relatively simple firmware fix. It would carry forward to future models and be worth it even if it's a relatively niche use. Already including things like the astro-tracer should make the K-1 a gateway drug camera for more intensive astro work, so it would be nice to cater to this crowd.
You are right, of course, Brian, with everything you say here.

A good thing is that EFSC in Bulb mode would only require a firmware update.

Last edited by clackers; 05-05-2017 at 07:01 PM.
05-09-2017, 08:08 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lage Quote
Since Ricoh seems to have ambitions in astrophoto, i canīt understand that this hasnīt been done already. They have added electronic shutter in live view, but not when using bulb mode.
Putting the K-1 on a 1000mm newtonian reflector, iīm stuck with 30s exposures with electronic shutter to avoid shutter induced blur.
Fix this ASAP Ricoh.
Since the sensor scans line by line rather than globally in ES mode, now would it work in bulb? If you are having shutter induced vibration issues, French flag your lens/telescope for a few seconds after releasing the shutter to let vibration die down

05-09-2017, 10:07 AM   #9
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Is that really the same thing? I mean, K-1 now has Electronic Front Curtain Shutter in LV, not fully electronic shutter. Pixel Shift uses fully electronic shutter. 30 seconds fully electronic shutter would make a mess out of everything line-by-line. And so it seems to do with pixel-shift if something moves. Not really anything fancy happening in 30 second normal exposures even if there is something moving like water.
05-09-2017, 10:35 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
30 seconds fully electronic shutter would make a mess out of everything line-by-line.
Actually, I've tried PS with >15sec exposures + low shutter speed noise reduc. ... and you are right it messes up completely, the pixel shift outputs vertical lines in the image..
05-10-2017, 04:33 AM   #11
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I could be wrong, but doesn't it start the exposure for each line separately, then goes back and reads off each line separately? Like a staggered start and staggered finish where the stagger is absolutely miniscule (measured in microseconds?), and every line completes the race for the same amount of time (your exposure length). In other words it's not waiting for line 1 to finish its exposure before starting line 2. The rolling would be present for the first 1/60s and the last 1/60s of a second (or however long the delay from the top to bottom line is, I made up 1/60s:P).

Either way, this should be a non-issue for stationary objects, no? Which is ideally how the stars should be on a tracking mount from the camera's viewpoint.
05-10-2017, 07:00 AM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
I could be wrong, but doesn't it start the exposure for each line separately, then goes back and reads off each line separately? Like a staggered start and staggered finish where the stagger is absolutely miniscule (measured in microseconds?), and every line completes the race for the same amount of time (your exposure length). In other words it's not waiting for line 1 to finish its exposure before starting line 2. The rolling would be present for the first 1/60s and the last 1/60s of a second (or however long the delay from the top to bottom line is, I made up 1/60s:P).

Either way, this should be a non-issue for stationary objects, no? Which is ideally how the stars should be on a tracking mount from the camera's viewpoint.
Yes, the starts and reads are staggered across the sensor. I've not seen any exact measurement of the total stagger time between the first line and the last, but some of the banding issues that people have had with the K-1 with flickering light sources (LED & fluorescent) suggest that it is something on the order of 1/8 to 1/4 second.

That implies that if Ricoh did change the firmware to permit use electronic shutter in bulb, that the camera would continue collecting light up to 1/8 to 1/4 second AFTER hitting the shutter button a second time which means any shake from hitting the shutter button would be visible in the image (which may be why Ricoh did not choose to implement that feature if they thought it was likely to created complaints). Of course, they could permit electronic shutter in bulb but only in IR release mode but then that complicates the firmware more if there's more complex logic and more users would complain because they don't understand why the camera isn't working.
05-10-2017, 05:54 PM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
That implies that if Ricoh did change the firmware to permit use electronic shutter in bulb, that the camera would continue collecting light up to 1/8 to 1/4 second AFTER hitting the shutter button a second time which means any shake from hitting the shutter button would be visible in the image (which may be why Ricoh did not choose to implement that feature if they thought it was likely to created complaints).
That's possible, it seems to me they err on the side of protecting users from themselves by not even giving them options such as this. I'd think having electronic shutter disabled in bulb mode by default, and making it a menu choice would be the safe option. Anyone turning it on is likely trying to minimize all sources of vibrations, finger to the shutter button to start and end a bulb exposure is one of the first things that would already be avoided for such a user.

A warning in the manual would also suffice. A certain level of sophistication should be expected for any K-1 user willing to dive into strange camera settings
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