[biz-engineer]

Are you including R&D in that? Manufacturing and distribution costs?

That's intangible. I'm taking about the tangible part of what you get when you buy a camera, that part that's not vaporware.

---------- Post added 22-02-22 at 13:16 ----------

That aside, my K-3 - made from the cheapest possible materials of plastic, rubber and glue (apparently) - is still going strong!

Well, great. What if you bought a Fuji GFX100S for $6000 and the shutter broke after taking 100 pictures? Do you like the quality of plastic for the price you paid? Are you arguing it's normal because the money went into great R&D and the cost of services and for paying the sales people at Fuji?

[BigMackCam]

That's intangible. I'm taking about the tangible part of what you get when you buy a camera, that part that's not vaporware.

It's not intangible to the company spending money on R&D, biz. Thousands of man hours on design and prototyping... That has to be paid for. The only way you can buy a product for the cost of materials is to design it, buy the materials and build it yourself. Good luck if it's a DSLR or MILC you're after

Well, great. What if you bought a Fuji GFX100S for $6000 and the shutter broke after taking 100 pictures?

I wouldn't be too pleased, that's for sure. But it happens. And I'd get it fixed under warranty - or, if it was my fault that it broke, or that was disputed, I'd pay to have it fixed.

Do you like the quality of plastic for the price you paid?

I didn't just buy the raw materials, biz. I bought a portion of the idea, design, development, testing, tooling, manufacturing, distribution and marketing - whether I like it or not - and I knew that when I bought the product, as any reasonable person would.

Are you arguing it's normal because the money went into great R&D and the cost of services and for paying the sales people at Fuji?

If you want better quality materials, biz, buy a more expensive product. Maybe a Phase One or Hasselblad, although both use some plastics (and rubber, and glue ). Or... don't buy the product if you're going to be unhappy with the quality of materials. No-one's forcing you... your money, your choice

[biz-engineer]

I wouldn't be too pleased, that's for sure. But it happens. And I'd get it fixed under warranty - or, if it was my fault that it broke, or that was disputed, I'd pay to have it fixed.

You'd return the camera to where you bought it. They'd say "Sorry but you haven't used the camera properly, that's why it failed. And at that price, given only few customers buy that camera (that's why we charge so much for it, not because of the cost of materials), we had to save $5 on the shutter material to be able to pay our executives and engineers".

It's interesting to compare a $10 000 camera with a $10 000 car. Compared to a camera, the car has had more R&D and the car has much more material in it, and much much stronger, like materials used for the engine. Should camera manufacturers still save $2 on camera parts and keep increasing prices because there are less and less customers buying cameras? At some point, its just ridiculous to save $2 on materials.

[gatorguy]

Cheapest possible materials? Plastic, rubber, glue? Ten times what it costs? Are you including R&D in that? Manufacturing and distribution costs? A $100,000 car can fail without warning. Any product with electronics and/or moving parts can fail. We expect perfection from highly complex products. Some folks forget that the shutter spring on a Brownie box camera could break, back in the day...

That aside, my K-3 - made from the cheapest possible materials of plastic, rubber and glue (apparently) - is still going strong!

As is my always reliable 6 year old K-70 along with my sold-this-month 4 or 5 year old one. The third, likely a 4 year old one (might be older) sold to a friend of mine is also clicking along nicely. Which reminds me she didn't show up with my Pentax flash this weekend.

FWIW I've spent far more than the cost of a K-70 on a smartphone that fails not long after warranty expired, one being Android and one an iPhone. Yet I still buy and own both Android and Apple smartphones

---

Last edited by gatorguy; 02-22-2022 at 05:48 AM.

[BigMackCam]

You'd return the camera to where you bought it. They'd say "Sorry but you haven't used the camera properly, that's why it failed. And at that price, given only few customers buy that camera (that's why we charge so much for it, not because of the cost of materials), we had to save $5 on the shutter material to be able to pay our executives and engineers".

It's interesting to compare a $10 000 camera with a $10 000 car. Compared to a camera, the car has had more R&D and the car has much more material in it, and much much stronger, like materials used for the engine. Should camera manufacturers still save $2 on camera parts and keep increasing prices because there are less and less customers buying cameras? At some point, its just ridiculous to save $2 on materials.

Biz, I'm sorry to say it, but you are at grave risk of becoming PF's resident Eeyore

[ThorSanchez]

You'd return the camera to where you bought it. They'd say "Sorry but you haven't used the camera properly, that's why it failed. And at that price, given only few customers buy that camera (that's why we charge so much for it, not because of the cost of materials), we had to save $5 on the shutter material to be able to pay our executives and engineers".

Aren't you an engineer? I am. I don't work for free, in fact the pay is one of the perks of the job. If companies didn't constantly trade off parts and manufacturing costs with things like reliability projections then it would be harder and harder to have the budget to hire quality engineers that design the camera in the first place.

Actually, being a bit older and more experienced I'm now more of a manager and director than an engineer, so I'm also glad that I'm paid for that, too. I know it's fashionable to decry managers and executives and their pay, but most of us certainly don't make anything close to $millions and someone has to be in charge of the strategic direction of the organization.

[photogem]

You can refer back to the posts on the solenoid to get the manufacturers name and get the spec sheet from their website. The name escapes me and I'm too tired to either search the forum or my archives.

Its all there:
A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY: Development of the solenoid in Pentax cameras - PentaxForums.com

The was a poster on a German Pentax from that claims he/she was told by someone from Pentax that the K-30 was designed to only last 2-3 years. That might sound incredulous but if you look at the manufacturer's spec sheet for the solenoid it has a rather low expected life of actuations - like on the order of 5,000-10,000 if my unreliable memory serves. Whatever the number is, it is way below the expected life of the shutter.

20.000 so not quite that bad.
The original spec sheet when still made in Japan was higher.
But the manufacturer when production went to China had a clever addition:
Notes
- The appearance and specifications of the products may be modified without prior notice to improve its performance.

Considering Ricoh tested the solenoid for almost 6 years in 7 different enty-level Pentax DSLR's in the flash circuit and all went well
I can understand that when the first few ABF's happened, which was about Mid 2013 and mostly on warranty it took that time to really understand it was the solenoid alone. The changes until they went into production also needed time.


Also considering that from 1983 onwards up till 2012 (if we add some preparation time this are 30 years) this principal worked flawless!

[biz-engineer]

Aren't you an engineer? I am. I don't work for free, in fact the pay is one of the perks of the job. If companies didn't constantly trade off parts and manufacturing costs with things like reliability projections then it would be harder and harder to have the budget to hire quality engineers that design the camera in the first place.

I am. Sometimes we're asked to do things by upper management that we know are going to create problems down the road. When the problems come back , management is gone, moved to other positions, not responsible anymore.

[Oldbayrunner]

In my 74 years I've had product failures of all types leading to my not purchasing anything from those brands. That I can understand and if anyone asked me for my opinion on those products then I would provide them with my honest experience with them ending with I wouldn't personally purchase that particular product again but depending on what it was I don't rule a company out due to Isolated instances when their overall product hasn't a history of large amounts of issues.

In the camera realm I have owned film cameras since I was 10 years old. In this time I have had cameras fail and needed to be repaired or replaced. In the early days good luck with getting a warranty repair there really wasn't any so it was either fix it yourself, go to a local camera repair shop or buy a new one. With that said I also have learned the value of purchasing something that is designed to last longer than something that isn't. Specs alone are an indication of that. Should the small percentages of failures opposed to the vastly greater number that survive to their expected operation span and beyond be the judge for a product brand? That can only be answered by each individual not as a whole.

My opposition to this thread is ok great you had a problem and you felt the need move on and that's a good thing for you. But what purpose does it serve to come back well after the fact and make a post such as this when the change has already been made? My thought is how petty, get over it and move on with your life and with your new product(s). It's really sad some people feel the need to hold on to a grudge and create posts that only serve to rankle up group members that favor a product or gather emotional gain from others that don't.

[Sangoma]

In my 74 years I've had product failures of all types leading to my not purchasing anything from those brands. That I can understand and if anyone asked me for my opinion on those products then I would provide them with my honest experience with them ending with I wouldn't personally purchase that particular product again but depending on what it was I don't rule a company out due to Isolated instances when their overall product hasn't a history of large amounts of issues.

In the camera realm I have owned film cameras since I was 10 years old. In this time I have had cameras fail and needed to be repaired or replaced. In the early days good luck with getting a warranty repair there really wasn't any so it was either fix it yourself, go to a local camera repair shop or buy a new one. With that said I also have learned the value of purchasing something that is designed to last longer than something that isn't. Specs alone are an indication of that. Should the small percentages of failures opposed to the vastly greater number that survive to their expected operation span and beyond be the judge for a product brand? That can only be answered by each individual not as a whole.

My opposition to this thread is ok great you had a problem and you felt the need move on and that's a good that's a good thing for you. But what purpose does it serve to come back well after the fact and make a post such as this when the change has already been made? My thought is how petty, get over it and move on with your life and with your new product(s). It's really sad some people feel the need to hold on to a grudge and create posts that only serve to rankle up group members that favor a product or gather emotional gain from others that don't.

I can see your point, however I carry no grudge, just disappointment and loss of faith.
I do disagree with some of your assumptions though, although very well presented

[c.a.m]

The purpose of the Product Suggestions and Feedback subforum is stated in a sticky post:

"What to post in the feedback forum
Feedback/suggestions posted in this forum will automatically be forwarded directly to Ricoh Imaging (Americas) management. Appropriate topics include:

- Your experience with current Pentax/Ricoh equipment
- Future feature suggestions
- Your experience with sales, service, or support"

So, it would seem to be an appropriate place to post feedback such as the OP's experience, regardless of how other members would have reacted to the situation. In brief, the OP felt let down by the company, and moved to other brands. Fair enough -- speak with your wallet, as the saying goes.

I think the broader issue is whether the OP is aware that other camera brands also have issues with product failures, instances of weak customer support, and glacial repair service.

- Craig

[Sangoma]

I think the broader issue is whether the OP is aware that other camera brands also have issues with product failures, instances of weak customer support, and glacial repair service.

- Craig

Yes, I am, I spent my working life in fields where equipment and products fail.

My policy, when I had influence over things, was that every body (individual or company) will make mistakes, but what the judgement should be on is how it is dealt with.

This was the first time I had personally experienced a fault that was widespread.
I note the mention of other brands that have had similar incidents, and I remember a well known make of TV that used poor quality electrolytic capacitors in the PSU unit, who eventually had to make repairs when many failed.

I am also well aware that for many or most companies, it is cheaper to lose customers than it is to have the means in place to rectify all problems. Just an unfortunate part of today's world.

[tabz]

Well, tens time nothing is nothing, that was the repair cost.

What made me start the thread is actually stated in the first post.

And it is not about the repair, or anything remotely connected with what I have spent, again, as already stated, it was about feeling let down and losing faith.

I hope you don't have to lose your faith again and your actual manufacturers will repair your cameras after warranty period for free.

[c.a.m]

My policy, when I had influence over things, was that every body (individual or company) will make mistakes, but what the judgement should be on is how it is dealt with.

I understand what you mean.

A couple of off-topic examples: A part on my garden hose cart failed; I took it back to Canadian Tire (large Canadian chain selling automotive, sports, garden, tools, etc) where one of the floor staff opened up a brand new box, found the piece, handed it to me, and wished me a good day. One time I got stranded about 20 miles from my house -- the car engine's oil plug fell out, thus venting all of the oil. Our long-time service station that had changed the oil a couple of days earlier took ownership, found a replacement engine (used but in good condition), and had everything back to normal in a few days at their cost.

On the contrary, my Pentax DA* 50-135mm lens suffered five SDM-related failures. The fourth failure was begrudgingly covered by Pentax, just outside of its 2-year warranty period, which they deemed a 'goodwill' repair. I was somewhat put off by their tone. The fifth failure prompted me to do a DIY conversion to screw-drive and I've enjoyed the lens ever since. Certainly, I thought that Ricoh Imaging should have served its customer better. However, I was glad that someone had discovered and published the DIY screwdrive hack. I won't buy another lens with the old-style SDM unless I can get a reasonable extended warranty/service agreement.

Not playing down your sentiment about Ricoh Imaging's customer service ethos, I think an important point is that we, the customers, don't have a realistic grasp of the failure rates. Yes, the K-30 and K-50 have had common failures, but we just don't know the extent across all owners/users. And there seems to be plenty of units that have not failed. In other cases, Ricoh Imaging has issued Service Notices for the K-5 sensor stain issue, the K-3 II 'power off' issue, and I think the Ricoh GR III 'tilted' controller pad. So, they are not totally oblivious to systemic failures or problems.

Anyways, glad you found other brands that satisfy your needs. Sometimes that's a more palatable recourse, if not more economical, than bearing with a company that has fallen from grace in one's mind. However, as mentioned above, there's a risk that other brands could prompt similar moves until no brands are left to try.

- Craig

[biz-engineer]

I am also well aware that for many or most companies, it is cheaper to lose customers than it is to have the means in place to rectify all problems.

In that case, I recommend to buy two or more copies of Pentax products, some sort of redundancy to reduce the probability of failure impact.