Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-28-2017, 10:00 AM - 1 Like   #31
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,037
QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Erm, no, not a fad. It wasn't a fad in the 1920s when the first 35mm cameras came out was it?
Who said 35mm cameras were a fad? Cameras from the 70's evolved and improved. they didn't stay static in design and functionality. That all happened for a reason. I believe that is what will happen with Retro cameras. The grips will slowly get bigger, the cameras bigger, the ergonomics tweeked, functionality added, etc, etc

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Look at how Fujifilm is doing in this market. Skyrocketing
They've done incredibly well in increasing their market share and have some brilliant products and marketing. But they essentially started with a clean sheet and didn't have an in place legacy product and user base like Canon / Nikon / Pentax. So their strategy and formula was good for them, but that doesn't mean it is the right one for other companies.
They've had to make heavy investments in products, lenses, marketing to build market share. Are they profitable at this point? have they recouped their R&D investments. I actually doubt it. No one really knows except the Fuji insiders despite what any shareholder annual reports may say.

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Check out the new GFX model and tell me it's a fad
Boutique, prestige niche product that requires a huge up front investment by Fuji. The medium format market is tiny and getting more crowded. They may well have large ambitions to grow this segment or it may just be a vanity project in the same way car manufacturers build niche high end vehicles that don't actually make any money. We'll see.

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
The problem with the KP (fine camera though it undoubtedly is) is that it is exactly already that - a niche camera. It is a sidestep from the current range
No, it's a new product tier sitting between the mid range K-70 and the eventual high-end K3iii.

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
If you're going to go niche, don't remould a K-70 - provide an alternative approach, one that attracts a new market
It's not a re-mold of the K-70. More advanced AF system, mag body, improved sensor, electronic shutter, faster FPS, etc, etc.
It's very carefully pitched between the K70 tier and the K3ii successor tier.

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
The niche for the KP as I see it, is existing Pentax users with slightly smaller hands (!)
or the existing Pentax K-7/K-5/K-30/K-50 users who want to upgrade but may not necessarily need every single pro level feature on their camera.
or the K1 user who wants a smaller backup camera with similar controls.
or the Pentax user, or APS-C user in general who wants potentially the very best sensor performance in the segment at that price point and is shopping right now.

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Once again, the problem with the Df was that they didn't go full retro. They tried to cram in too many functions of their existing cameras into it, and it ends up being a bit of a frankenstein.
I quite like the Df, but I don't think that was its problem, the problem was the established legacy product line and user base, same with Canon. I'm sure Ricoh rightly took note.

QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
What would be the point in going 'full retro just like Fuji' when you can already buy a Fuji?
Exactly, trying to out-Fuji Fuji doesn't seem like a smart business move for a bit player like Pentax.

01-28-2017, 10:04 AM - 1 Like   #32
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2014
Photos: Albums
Posts: 501
QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
... I thought my K-S2 was bad enough with its AUTO / SCN / A-HDR / U1 / U2 / B / M / TAv / Av / Tv / Sv / P dial. ...
wait, wait.. wait... :^)

Those cryptic markings are confusing..?
Why ?

SCN & AUTO are not unique to Pentax
B & M & P have been around some short period of time..
Either C# or U# are typical abbreviations for customizable registers

...Are Av & Tv confusing ?
If so, that is a bit ironic because Tv & Av are ..retro markings. Yes

Awareness of the meaning of Tv & Av makes TAv understandable..
TAv & Sv are Pentax things, though, so I can excuse the confusion here :^)

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 11:16 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
... you always know what your camera is thinking - so photography is easier. Not quite so with the all electronic, two stepped interface we are used to. By two stepped I mean, you are a control step further back from the raw control that real retro cameras give you.
...
... IBIS is nice, and maybe nice to have wifi, ...
...Gotta go full retro.
The shutter speed dial on the retro cameras is a most difficult method of control required by the retro-grade gestalt. I choose aperture and then set exposure with shutter speed. Why do I want to adjust shutter in full stops.. and, if I want to adjust shutter in 1/2 stops, I must perform some secondary step with the retro camera.. :^) I am sorry but the command dial of the not-retro cameras is a single step process and does not require two steps as do the retro cams.. :^|

Now, maybe you like using the shutter dial and that is fine. But that doesn't make the shutter dial experience more 'authentic', to quote Bagger Vance.

Plus, command dials have been around 30 years. They are retro as well.

Ibis is a bird.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 11:24 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
... Doesn't sound convenient to me.
It isn't

But, it may be fun for some people
Some people prefer cars with manual shift transmissions. Some people like to live on the high plains and drive a car with the engine coolant thermostat frozen open.

There are all kinds of different things to enjoy but it doesn't mean one is better than the other. Packing snow in the radiator so the engine will warm enough to blow tepid air at a frozen windshield does not make for 'authentic' driving.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 11:34 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
... The way Fuji implements it is ideal. You have all your shutter speeds and an A setting. You have all your apertures and an A setting. All your ISOs and an A setting. So you get the same functionality i.e.. M, A, S, P, etc. by choosing which A(s) you want to set. I don't see any downside. ...
Setting priority modes in this way be more fun.
It is not more simple.
If you think it is more simple, there is no argument that will change your mind...

Have you been able to convince people that setting three dials to A is easier than setting one dial to P ?
01-28-2017, 10:40 AM   #33
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 158
Original Poster
QuoteQuote:

Have you been able to convince people that setting three dials to A is easier than setting one dial to P ?
Are you one of those people that believe P stands for Professional mode? I hope not. P may be useful for certain photojournalistic situations, but for most of my purposes, it sure ain't.
01-28-2017, 10:42 AM   #34
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2014
Photos: Albums
Posts: 501
QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
... Gotta go full retro.
Apologies in advance for this, but...
I can't shake from my mind's eye John Candy
dressed as a Wookie getting ready to engage plaid mode.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 11:43 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Are you one of those people that believe P stands for Professional mode? I hope not. P may be useful for certain photojournalistic situations, but for most of my purposes, it sure ain't.
Oh, goodness
I retract my apology

01-28-2017, 10:49 AM   #35
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 158
Original Poster
QuoteQuote:
Boutique, prestige niche product that requires a huge up front investment by Fuji. The medium format market is tiny and getting more crowded. They may well have large ambitions to grow this segment or it may just be a vanity project in the same way car manufacturers build niche high end vehicles that don't actually make any money. We'll see.
Short-sighted view imho. How many digital medium format cameras have there been? Not a whole lot. How many mirrorless ones? Well this makes it a total of two I think with the Hasselblad. It's new territory, and its small size makes it a game changer. My personal prediction is that it will be very popular in the professional market.

Anyhoo, my thesis was not about the profitability of medium format cameras. My thesis was about the proven popularity of having top level exposure control on top of your camera. As I wandered around the Paris Photo show at the end of last year, I just saw Fuji after Fuji after Fuji draped round necks. Nary a Pentax (or much else) in sight. Those who are serious about the craft are well into this approach.
01-28-2017, 10:53 AM   #36
mee
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,403
QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
What would be the point in going 'full retro just like Fuji' when you can already buy a Fuji?

They should go 'full Pentax like Pentax' because nobody else does that.
What, precisely, is 'full Pentax like Pentax' ?

Over their storied history they've had (what we'd call now) vintage shaped film bodies, 80s and 90s, larger more rounded bodies, 00-10's more chiseled bodies, and now it seems back to a more vintage film body look. It seems they are regressing (progressing?) back to the vintage look over each couple of decades starting in the 80s as if they are unsure what to do or where to go.

The issue is, there is no ONE way to go with the design. Because design is very subjective and there are many on both sides who appreciate a different approach to design (that has been made highly evident over the past week!).

Yet I think, Ricoh (if they haven't already), needs to chose one and run with it.

That is, Unless they are willing to offer the same internals in a different form at the same time.. which would be great imo.

Have a K-1 styled K-3III and a KP styled K-3III. The K-1/less vintage styled design might be missing some of the knobbage (my term haha) but have the top lcd panel. While the KP/more vintage styled model would be the opposite. Internally, it would otherwise have the same hardware.
01-28-2017, 10:53 AM   #37
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 158
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Tan68 Quote
Apologies in advance for this, but...
I can't shake from my mind's eye John Candy
dressed as a Wookie getting ready to engage plaid mode.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 11:43 AM ----------



Oh, goodness
I retract my apology
what is "plaid mode"? (i never saw spaceballs, I was actually referencing Tropic thunder, don't know if you saw that one.)




Last edited by plooksta; 01-28-2017 at 11:17 AM.
01-28-2017, 12:08 PM   #38
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 27,603
QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
What you're calling a niche move is rather large. All camera manufacturers have imitated and embellished each others' technology. That is the nature of market forces and technology. Why did Nikon adopt that damned new-fangled autofocus niche thing? Why are Sony now using that silly fad IBIS system? Why this silly pixel shift thing copied from Hasselblad? We use other peoples' ideas when they are good and the market wants them.

My contention is that the market would want a sideline "niche" camera with retro controls more than it wants another "variations on the same theme" camera, which the KP seems to be.

PS the KP does not go to 1/24000 shutter speeds. You have nothing to fear there.
For what it's worth, the shutter does go to 1/24000 second with the electronic shutter. I'm not sure how often you'd use that, but certainly it is available. Mechanical shutter only does 1/6000 second.
01-28-2017, 12:40 PM - 1 Like   #39
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Working From Home
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,276
Tony is a respected member who has a viewpoint. There's no need to be uncharitable. I don't see the point, but then lots of people think film camera users are sort of quaint. We all have our preferences.

IMHO the largest impediment to producing a manual Pentax digital (retro) camera is lack of an aperture ring on the modern lenses. Calling FA's (even Limiteds) modern is being generous.
01-28-2017, 12:51 PM - 2 Likes   #40
Senior Member
Bromberger's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 186
QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
folks just dig them. I don't know anyone that doesn't.
I don't, because i prefer Pentax for their user interface. I want full manual control but i also need to be fast. And i am very fast in M-Mode, using one of Pentax' greatest features, the Green Button. But i believe the Green Button wouldn't work with the Fuji dials.

However, i'm sure for you and a lot of people, your statements are true. But those people buy Fuji. And i'll buy Pentax for what makes Pentax great.
01-28-2017, 01:00 PM - 1 Like   #41
Forum Member




Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
QuoteOriginally posted by Tan68 Quote
It isn't

But, it may be fun for some people
I have no problem with fun, nostalgia, and other nice feelings that people experience when holding/seeing cameras that hearken back to golden era of mechanical masterpieces like MX or F2. I am enamoured with Fujifilm cameras myself and was thinking about moving to the X system, before KP announcement. But to claim that user interface based on physical dials, located in the spots that can't be easily accessed with camera firmly pressed into users face, is better than two (or three) dial system with several quick access buttons located in ergonomic positions, is a bit ... strange.

QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Are you one of those people that believe P stands for Professional mode? I hope not. P may be useful for certain photojournalistic situations, but for most of my purposes, it sure ain't.
Are you one of those people that believe that M mode (or Av, Tv, or whatever) is somehow 'the right way' to use the camera?
01-28-2017, 01:09 PM   #42
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2014
Photos: Albums
Posts: 501
QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
what is "plaid mode"? (i never saw spaceballs, I was actually referencing Tropic thunder, don't know if you saw that one.)

Tropic Thunder (2008) "You never go full Retard!" - YouTube
I have seen the first Tropic Thunder movie

..honestly, I don't recall if there is a plaid mode. I think Space Balls introduces a Ludicrous Mode that is faster than HyperSpeed. During Ludicrous Mode travel, rather than all the light from stars stretching into Star Trek streaks, the light shining on the actors becomes some kind of tartan with orange..

So, I think 'plaid' is what happens to you if you slap the Ludicrous Mode button :^(

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 02:16 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
... Are you one of those people that believe that M mode (or Av, Tv, or whatever) is somehow 'the right way' to use the camera?
I know you weren't asking me, but I do use M mode.
With all the modern aids and image review, I don't consider it very M.. at least not the traditional type of M. I mostly use it for predictability from one image to the next.

I don't consider it better than Av or Tv
M can be slower.
01-28-2017, 01:47 PM   #43
Forum Member




Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 66
QuoteOriginally posted by Tan68 Quote
I know you weren't asking me, but I do use M mode.
With all the modern aids and image review, I don't consider it very M.. at least not the traditional type of M. I mostly use it for predictability from one image to the next.

I don't consider it better than Av or Tv
M can be slower.
I use M mode myself, especially when shooting with hand held light meter. But my main shooting mode is Program, which basically serves as Av or Tv mode on demand. And I'm really puzzled by snob attitude some people express about semi-automatic modes
01-28-2017, 02:30 PM   #44
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 158
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
I have no problem with fun, nostalgia, and other nice feelings that people experience when holding/seeing cameras that hearken back to golden era of mechanical masterpieces like MX or F2. I am enamoured with Fujifilm cameras myself and was thinking about moving to the X system, before KP announcement. But to claim that user interface based on physical dials, located in the spots that can't be easily accessed with camera firmly pressed into users face, is better than two (or three) dial system with several quick access buttons located in ergonomic positions, is a bit ... strange.

Are you one of those people that believe that M mode (or Av, Tv, or whatever) is somehow 'the right way' to use the camera?
No. there is no right way. All the modes are there for something. It was Ken Rockwell who came up with that gem. I used P maybe once a year.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 02:32 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
I use M mode myself, especially when shooting with hand held light meter. But my main shooting mode is Program, which basically serves as Av or Tv mode on demand. And I'm really puzzled by snob attitude some people express about semi-automatic modes

I'm a big fan of the Av and TAv myself.

---------- Post added 01-28-17 at 02:35 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For what it's worth, the shutter does go to 1/24000 second with the electronic shutter. I'm not sure how often you'd use that, but certainly it is available. Mechanical shutter only does 1/6000 second.

I stand corrected.
01-28-2017, 02:36 PM   #45
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
jpzk's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Québec
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 8,251
QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Frankly, I think Pentax's modern control scheme is far more user-friendly
Having two systems: Pentax and Fuji X .... Pentax sure is a LOT more user friendly.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
alternative, aperture, camera, cameras, choice, control, controls, design, dials, folks, fuji, fujifilm, ibis, ii, iso, k-3, k-70, kp, level, market, markings, pentax, pentax kp, people, screen, shutter, users, word
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why won't shutter release? yozza Pentax DSLR Discussion 34 04-16-2018 03:36 PM
ISO won't go below 200 in Tav mode PixelPete Pentax K-70 & KF 4 09-24-2016 02:45 PM
Why won't Pentax release a DA UWA with WR? Mountain Vision Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 19 06-12-2016 05:24 PM
Auto ISO won't go below 200 please help slip Pentax K-3 & K-3 II 9 07-18-2015 06:34 PM
Why won't Pentax... sebberry Pentax DSLR Discussion 3 04-09-2010 07:53 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:42 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top