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01-29-2017, 08:21 PM - 3 Likes   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Are you one of those people that believe P stands for Professional mode? I hope not. P may be useful for certain photojournalistic situations, but for most of my purposes, it sure ain't.
In P-mode I can switch from Av to Tv with a simple E-dial motion, back to P with the green button. Brilliant, simple, intuitive.

I use TAv mode for low light and telephoto shots, where I need control of sharpness, DOF, camera shake and subject motion.

I have User modes set for Action, Tripod and Flash. A quick flick of the mode dial and I'm there, with no chance I will forget to change an important setting (AF mode, AF points, shutter control, SR, EV comp, metering, etc., etc.). No retro mode can compare with that speed and convenience.

People who use M mode often think their way is more purist. If they're using the green button, they're in Hyper-Program mode, not true Manual. There's no basis for thinking that shooting in M is somehow superior.

I do wish my K-3 had a third dial for EV compensation.


Last edited by audiobomber; 01-29-2017 at 08:33 PM.
01-29-2017, 09:43 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I was wondering that too. How easy is it to get into a multiple exposure mode (which I have user 1 set for in my camera) or pixel shift mode (which I have User 2 set for)? How easy is it to set anything other than the specific settings that are listed on those dials?

I do use TAv mode a lot -- a mode that wasn't possible in the days where you iso was whatever film speed you had in your camera -- and it feels like it would be a lot harder with this interface, while with any current Pentax SLRs you spin front and back dials and have your shutter and aperture selected and then you iso floats to cover your shutter speed. Looks kind of hard with this interface as well.
Assuming X-T1 way of doing things, for TAv you just have to set the ISO dial to "A". If you also want in general to control the shutter from the front dial instead from the top one - I think the way to do it is to set the top one to "T"
01-29-2017, 09:54 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by npc Quote
Assuming X-T1 way of doing things, for TAv you just have to set the ISO dial to "A". If you also want in general to control the shutter from the front dial instead from the top one - I think the way to do it is to set the top one to "T"
Yeah, that sounds like retro thinking alright. My Super Program didn't have modes - each setting had modes, and the overall mode was the combination of the various modes. If I wanted what we call "M" mode today, I would set the f-stop on the lens ring and the shutter speed on the body; if I wanted what we call "P" mode today, I would set the lens ring to "A" and the body to "auto". I'm not sure I see this as better than what we have today, because you had to look at all the little pieces to see the big picture. If Pentax wanted to go back to that, they'd have to issue a whole new set of lenses with aperture rings, and with the KAF4 mount, that would mean aperture-by-wire. My opinion is that they'd be better off putting that energy into more full-frame lenses.
01-30-2017, 12:51 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
I think essentially with this type of departure you would have to make certain compromises.
So, in the end, form over matter.

01-30-2017, 07:57 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
So, in the end, form over matter.
You mean form over function? No! This is all about function. It's a different approach that's all.
You want all your usual controls and functions - well you have them already in the K-3ii, the K70, the K-1. This is a complimentary notion, that goes back to a more standard approach to exposure control. You need 1/3 stop shutter speeds? Plenty of cameras can do that. But the whole world got by just fine without them for decades and many still do. Even a whole stop under or over exposed these days amounts to a fraction of a second correction in PP. I don't personally need it and I'd say leave it out in this concept. As for user modes. They annoy the hell out of me personally, since I need to remember what the hell I set them all to. I guess I'm just more of a show-me-hands-on guy. Horses for courses.

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 07:58 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Yeah, that sounds like retro thinking alright. My Super Program didn't have modes - each setting had modes, and the overall mode was the combination of the various modes. If I wanted what we call "M" mode today, I would set the f-stop on the lens ring and the shutter speed on the body; if I wanted what we call "P" mode today, I would set the lens ring to "A" and the body to "auto". I'm not sure I see this as better than what we have today, because you had to look at all the little pieces to see the big picture. If Pentax wanted to go back to that, they'd have to issue a whole new set of lenses with aperture rings, and with the KAF4 mount, that would mean aperture-by-wire. My opinion is that they'd be better off putting that energy into more full-frame lenses.
Doesn't require any lens re-working. Legacy lenses with aperture rings could be rigged to work the old way. If no ring present the camera takes over. Not so hard.

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 08:00 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
If you've been around cameras longer than 15 or so years, "retro" is like meeting an old friend that you haven't seen for a very long time.
Pick up a Fuji XT-1 or XT-2. If you've ever used a full mode film camera, the Fuji is one of the most ergonomic interfaces you could ask for.
You got it.

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 08:06 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
They can't possibly be aiming only at long time photographers, that's just cutting down your already small share of the market.
People keep coming up with this fallacy.
I'm not saying replace the K-1, K3 ii and K-70 with retro-dialled cameras. No! They exist, they remain. I am saying along side, offer something a little different, because the line up looks a little overbaked to me. All looking a little too similar... It's called diversification.
This has the opposite effect to what you are saying. It expands the potential user base by appealing to a broader church. What is difficult about this concept? It doe not just appeal to old time photographers. Young students still learn on K1000s believe it or not!! And they love the real feel of old cameras. Haven't you seen the whole 'hipster' movement? Furthermore, the concept is proven, with the very substantial success Fujifilm are having with this concept. It's not a wild shot in the dark!!!

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 08:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by caliscouser Quote
Then K70/K3ii is the camera for you, for others it will be KP and for others still it will be the K3ii successor. In other words something for everyone, and that's exactly the point.
Horses for courses. But currently, the "Why I will buy a KP" has 12 replies. I don't know how many of them are satirical, but the "Why I won't buy a KP" currently has 89 replies.

Last edited by plooksta; 01-30-2017 at 08:19 AM.
01-30-2017, 09:10 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
You mean form over function? No! This is all about function. It's a different approach that's all.
You want all your usual controls and functions - well you have them already in the K-3ii, the K70, the K-1. This is a complimentary notion, that goes back to a more standard approach to exposure control. You need 1/3 stop shutter speeds? Plenty of cameras can do that. But the whole world got by just fine without them for decades and many still do. Even a whole stop under or over exposed these days amounts to a fraction of a second correction in PP. I don't personally need it and I'd say leave it out in this concept. As for user modes. They annoy the hell out of me personally, since I need to remember what the hell I set them all to. I guess I'm just more of a show-me-hands-on guy. Horses for courses.

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 07:58 AM ----------


Doesn't require any lens re-working. Legacy lenses with aperture rings could be rigged to work the old way. If no ring present the camera takes over. Not so hard.

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 08:00 AM ----------


You got it.

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 08:06 AM ----------



People keep coming up with this fallacy.
I'm not saying replace the K-1, K3 ii and K-70 with retro-dialled cameras. No! They exist, they remain. I am saying along side, offer something a little different, because the line up looks a little overbaked to me. All looking a little too similar... It's called diversification.
This has the opposite effect to what you are saying. It expands the potential user base by appealing to a broader church. What is difficult about this concept? It doe not just appeal to old time photographers. Young students still learn on K1000s believe it or not!! And they love the real feel of old cameras. Haven't you seen the whole 'hipster' movement? Furthermore, the concept is proven, with the very substantial success Fujifilm are having with this concept. It's not a wild shot in the dark!!!

---------- Post added 01-30-17 at 08:09 AM ----------



Horses for courses. But currently, the "Why I will buy a KP" has 12 replies. I don't know how many of them are satirical, but the "Why I won't buy a KP" currently has 89 replies.
It doesn't seem to me that Ricoh/Pentax are in the position to invest into R&D, manufacturing and marketing of such a niche product. Plus they already have a major competitor in that niche - Fuji, that offers very good cameras and has a nice line up of good glass to back it up, together with great firmware support post release.
01-30-2017, 09:22 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
It doesn't seem to me that Ricoh/Pentax are in the position to invest into R&D, manufacturing and marketing of such a niche product. Plus they already have a major competitor in that niche - Fuji, that offers very good cameras and has a nice line up of good glass to back it up, together with great firmware support post release.
You may be right, but I don't see it needs a whole lot of R and D. Rewiring and relabelling a few dials is not too hard for an innovative technology company like Ricoh. I;m not so technical and of course there's probably a little more to it than that, but I have faith in these people!

As for the market. Undoubtedly most of the people this would appeal to are not here on this forum. The folks on Pentaxforums are mainly existing Pentax users, happy with the current offerings by Pentax (I am one of them) and that's fine. But the 95% (correct me if this figure is wrong) of photographers using other brands are over on Fujiforums or Leicaforums and elsewhere, and this is possibly something that would attract them to a Pentax model. But they aren't here to yell "hell yeah!" The advantages Pentax has over Fuji are the big legacy of native glass that can be used - this simply doesn't exist for Fuji (except via adapters in which you lose a lot of functionality) - weather sealing and IBIS (also features Fuji don't have in the same way)


Last edited by plooksta; 01-30-2017 at 09:43 AM.
01-30-2017, 09:53 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
You may be right, but I don't see it needs a whole lot of R and D. Rewiring and relabelling a few dials is not too hard for an innovative technology company like Ricoh. I;m not so technical and of course there's probably a little more to it than that, but I have faith in these people!

As for the market. Undoubtedly most of the people this would appeal to are not here on this forum. The folks on Pentaxforums are mainly existing Pentax users, happy with the current offerings by Pentax (I am one of them) and that's fine. But the 95% (correct me if this figure is wrong) of photographers using other brands are over on Fujiforums or Leicaforums and elsewhere, and this is possibly something that would attract them to a Pentax model. But they aren't here to yell "hell yeah!" The advantage Pentax has over Fuji is the big legacy of native glass that can be used. This simply doesn't exist for Fuji (except via adapters in which you lose a lot of functionality).
Fuji has an advantage to or being mirrorless, hence you can adapt almost any lens out there from film era with a simple adapter, manual lenses won't lose much functionality if any. There's a smart adapter for Sony that adds af to any Leica/contex manual lens, I'm not sure if it's available for fuji yet but it probably will happen. Smart adapters with af functionality already available for most mirrorless mounts, plus focal reducing one's that effectively negate the crop factor of the apsc sensor. Also, since those cameras use evfs, you see the correct exposure right away and are able to use peaking for precise manual focus right in the EVF. Mirrorless have a ton of attractions apart from retro looks, I've used an Olympus EM1 for few years and it was a darn good little camera, excellent with vintage glass. Pentax does have a big collection of legacy glass, but due to flange distance we can't easily adapt desirable ones from other mounts of the past (or present), while fuji can, and they can adapt any Pentax lens as well. To me it seems mountain is too high to climb right now, maybe in future.

I've misread your initial comment, I thought you're proposing to switch Pentax control schemes to fuji like one's. If you just want a niche camera then there's no real argument, any niche camera can happen if manufacturer decides that it's in their interest to release one. I was a bit skeptical about the Leica cam with no screen in the back released few years back, but I guess they know their customers well and decided someone would want one.
01-30-2017, 10:05 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
Fuji has an advantage to or being mirrorless, hence you can adapt almost any lens out there from film era with a simple adapter, manual lenses won't lose much functionality if any. There's a smart adapter for Sony that adds af to any Leica/contex manual lens, I'm not sure if it's available for fuji yet but it probably will happen. Smart adapters with af functionality already available for most mirrorless mounts, plus focal reducing one's that effectively negate the crop factor of the apsc sensor. Also, since those cameras use evfs, you see the correct exposure right away and are able to use peaking for precise manual focus right in the EVF. Mirrorless have a ton of attractions apart from retro looks, I've used an Olympus EM1 for few years and it was a darn good little camera, excellent with vintage glass. Pentax does have a big collection of legacy glass, but due to flange distance we can't easily adapt desirable ones from other mounts of the past (or present), while fuji can, and they can adapt any Pentax lens as well. To me it seems mountain is too high to climb right now, maybe in future.

I've misread your initial comment, I thought you're proposing to switch Pentax control schemes to fuji like one's. If you just want a niche camera then there's no real argument, any niche camera can happen if manufacturer decides that it's in their interest to release one. I was a bit skeptical about the Leica cam with no screen in the back released few years back, but I guess they know their customers well and decided someone would want one.
Aren't those adapters horribly expensive?
01-30-2017, 12:17 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Aren't those adapters horribly expensive?
Dumb adapters are cheap, 10-15$. I bought a Mitakon focal reducer for around 120$, not too bad overall, I got a Canon ef one, and then adapted my other mount lenses with cheap adapter rings to the focal reducer. Saved me a ton, only needed one focal reducer and few simple adapter rings. I have no idea about the af adapters for manual lenses, I haven't been following mirrorless news since I've switched, but I think there are people willing to pay whatever to have their Leica lenses af) metabones speedboosters are indeed expensive, but are of highest optical quality, so I guess if you want the best of the best, they are worth the investment. Overall my mirrorless kit was a lot cheaper than my ff kit that I'm building now because I was able to get cheaper lenses for other mounts and adapt them to my camera to fill few niches (like an Uwa setup).
01-30-2017, 06:52 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
....
.currently, the "Why I will buy a KP" has 12 replies. I don't know how many of them are satirical, but the "Why I won't buy a KP" currently has 89 replies.
Of course. Pextaxians are a notoriously grumpy lot. If Pentax builds a camera with a grip 1/2" smaller than the grip on my K-30, 44% of them will say "Grip too small - deal breaker" and another 44% of them will say "Grip too large - deal breaker".

Last edited by reh321; 01-30-2017 at 07:16 PM.
01-30-2017, 06:57 PM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Of course. Pextaxians are a notoriously grumpy lot. If Pentax builds a camera with a grip 1/2" smaller than the grip on my K-30, 44% of them will say "Grip too small - deal breaker" and another 44% of them will say "Grip too large - dea lbreaker".
A strange point to bring up with regard to a camera with interchangeable grips.
01-30-2017, 07:18 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithedreamer Quote
A strange point to bring up with regard to a camera with interchangeable grips.
My point is that every new camera has been booed in a majority of the posts; people here always are able to find something to complain about, and the complaints often go in opposite directions. For every person who says "A is a dealbreaker" there will probably be someone who says "not A is a dealbreaker".
01-30-2017, 07:20 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
My point is that every new camera has been booed in a majority of the posts; people here always are able to find something to complain about, and the complaints often go in opposite directions.
Has it really? I followed the K-1's release pretty closely, and I don't recall this much hate for that camera.
01-30-2017, 07:23 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithedreamer Quote
Has it really? I followed the K-1's release pretty closely, and I don't recall this much hate for that camera.
How many people said something like "For five years I've been waiting for a FF from Pentax, but not that I've seen its video shortcomings I'm going to get a _____________"? ... and I believe there were some who were still hoping for an OnBoard Flash despite how the K3ii was constructed.
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