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01-31-2017, 01:10 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
In the end, all of these cameras are "usable" to get roughly the same images. Enjoyment of the use of the interface will depend more on the photographer than it will on the interface itself.

For someone like me who began photography in the age of e dials and never used these sorts of retro controls, it looks pretty foreign and clunky. But of course, I could learn it given a little time and it would probably be OK.

That said, I think the reason folks gravitate to Fuji is because of its excellent jpeg engine, relatively small cameras (due to its mirrorless nature), and high quality glass. The retro nature of the controls is probably neither here nor there for most people and it would be interesting if Fuji released two versions of the X Pro-2 -- one with a retro control and the other with two e dials, like Pentax -- which version would sell better. I frankly have no idea, but personally I would be more attracted to a camera that had an interface I was familiar with.
I think you'll find the interface is a very large part of it. The first time I got an X100 was a revelation. It felt like real photography again. It was like using film, but in a digital way. Even the b&w files looked like film (the jpg engine is very good). Something I can't quite explain. I'd never had a camera that just grabbed me by the neck and made me use it, all the time. Maybe it's something you should try.

02-01-2017, 05:36 AM - 1 Like   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by totsmuyco Quote
I believe that's it. Meaning, not now. Probably more years down the line. If they do, I hope it will be native k-mount. I don't know if that's possible in the sense that you can reduce the size of the camera and provide better AF. I don't know how the k-01 performs.
Owning and using the Sony E mounts, I'd say a usable EVF is here now. However, Pentax has a lot on its plate having just entered the FF market. I'd be surprised to see a mirrorless model soon.
02-03-2017, 07:42 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
I bet that majority of software in current Pentax cameras, is a legacy code dating back to pre K-5 era, that gets updated only when needed (i.e. AF algorithms, Smart Function introduction in K-1, image processing pipeline updates). Re-doing whole system from scratch will induce large costs, with questionable benefits. I know what I'm talking about, I'm a software developer. Not for embedded systems, but I know how it works in general.

Majority of people use Canon or Nikon DSLRs, or SONY MILCs, not Fujifilm X system and Leicas. And most maligned areas of Pentax system are AF performance, lack of specialised lenses and lack of EVF, not control scheme and ergonomics problems. You have a much higher chance of acquiring new users by working on those issues (which Ricoh does, to some extent), than creating a niche, high priced camera, with specialised (and thus quite limited) lens lineup.

That will work, though it creates a problem when using Hyper Program functionality, i.e. setting shutter speed or aperture value manually - other exposure parameters should be automatically adjusted (or even whole thing should go back into full auto with a press of a green button). Dials will have to be motorised or show incorrect exposure values in some cases, or green button (and Hyper Program) functionality will need to be removed. Same problem with green button and all other modes (but M mode especially).

This will be finicky and alienate a lot of potential userbase.

To me, turning a physical ISO dial wouldn't be much more faster (quite contrary, even slower as I can't do it while looking into viewfinder), than pushing dedicated ISO/Exp.Comp. button with index finger and simultaneously rotating dial with a thumb. On-lens aperture control requires left hand involvement, which is not always optimal (for me at least).
All you are saying is you have not used a well thought out control interface.
That you think pushing a button while turning a dial is faster than just turning a dial speaks volumes for what you know.
02-03-2017, 07:46 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
All you are saying is you have not used a well thought out control interface.
That you think pushing a button while turning a dial is faster than just turning a dial speaks volumes for what you know.
It certainly makes it easier to set things to auto.

02-03-2017, 08:01 PM - 1 Like   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
All you are saying is you have not used a well thought out control interface.
That you think pushing a button while turning a dial is faster than just turning a dial speaks volumes for what you know.
Who's pushing buttons while spinning dials? With a K-1 you shoot in M mode, you spin front dial for shutter speed, back e wheel for aperture and set your top wheel to ISO, which you shouldn't be changing much. Or you can set your top wheel to ev compensation if you prefer. But I'm not holding down buttons and spinning wheels.
02-03-2017, 10:04 PM - 1 Like   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
All you are saying is you have not used a well thought out control interface.
That you think pushing a button while turning a dial is faster than just turning a dial speaks volumes for what you know.
I'm saying that turning a dial under my thumb while pushing a button located directly under my index finger is faster, than turning a dial on a top plate somewhere on the other side of the camera. I'm talking about Fuji XT-2/X-Pro/XT-20 cameras shutter speed and ISO dials.
If that control scheme is so fast and convenient, why did Fuji put modern type dials on front and back of their new cameras, in exactly same spots as all other manufacturers?
02-04-2017, 07:31 AM - 1 Like   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
I'm saying that turning a dial under my thumb while pushing a button located directly under my index finger is faster, than turning a dial on a top plate somewhere on the other side of the camera. I'm talking about Fuji XT-2/X-Pro/XT-20 cameras shutter speed and ISO dials.
If that control scheme is so fast and convenient, why did Fuji put modern type dials on front and back of their new cameras, in exactly same spots as all other manufacturers?
Exactly!

Three of the disadvantages of marked top-plate dials is they are: 1) too stiff (and/or inconveniently placed) to easily operate with one finger, 2) have very narrower-clicks in order to compress the full range of the parameter into a single revolution, and 3) will change the setting of the camera if they are accidentally turned when the camera is off. They usually require two fingers to operate (and sometimes three if there's a push-to-unlock button in the center of the dial).

In contrast, e-dials are easy to operate with one finger, have the perfect number of clicks-per-revolution to balance speed and tactile feedback, and have no effect on camera settings when the camera is off (which it usually is given how easy and fast modern Pentax DSLRs turn on and off).

02-04-2017, 08:04 AM   #113
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I walked right into my K-1, without reading the manual. The top dial for me is completely intuitive. I didn't feel like there was much of a learning curve. And I have bracketing user mode, a bird in flight user mode, and a Pixel Shift user Mode, all of which take advantage of functions not available on my ME. The camera is more complicated because it does more things.

Some people like menu diving to do these things. Personally I like them accessible from dials. I would consider a retro style camera, if it was a considerable cost savings over my K-1. How is that working for Nikon, Fuji and others. See, I liked my K-1000 as bare bones camera at a bare bones price. Bare bones camera, with lots of menu diving at a higher price? That backwards.

And if you want an Aperture ring set it in your menu and use it. No one is stopping you.

The days of changing my ISO on the top dial, these days were excruciating. You really want that with a camera that you can change ISO on for every exposure, not every 24 like film? Really?

Last edited by normhead; 02-04-2017 at 08:11 AM.
02-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #114
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This is really fairly simple.*

The best answer to 'why' is probably Pentax through market research doesn't think enough people would buy a Pentax full Retro camera (as the OP defines 'full'), at the price they would need to sell it.


*The OP wants a camera operating interface. He wants his Want and he asked why Pentax has (so far) chosen not to offer a camera that satisfies his Want. Responses have described Pentax's choices to emulate what the OP wants. We're arguing with his Want, or asking why he would want that (allegedly inferior) Want. That's pointless. He wants that Want.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-04-2017 at 08:17 AM.
02-04-2017, 08:15 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This is really fairly simple.*

The best answer to 'why' is probably Pentax through market research doesn't think enough people would buy a Pentax full Retro camera (as the OP defines 'full') to justify making it.


*The OP wants a camera operating interface. He wants his Want and he asked why Pentax has (so far) chosen not to offer a camera that satisfies his Want. Responses have described Pentax's choices to emulate what the OP wants. We're arguing with his Want, or asking why he would want that (allegedly inferior) Want. That's pointless. He wants that Want.
Then why doesn't he just buy what he wants?

Maybe Pentax owns his mind and he can't conceive of getting what he wants from a camera brand other than Pentax. OP, open your mind, there's more than Pentax in the world.

Just another 'Pentax should do what it does, and everything everyone else does too." thread.

It's not enough that the K-1 gives me IQ I thought I would never have been able to afford, good enough to end my thoughts of picking up a used 645D. Good enough, that for most of what I do it's overkill and I tend to use it as a "big gun" and leave it home when smaller will be better, and by far the best IQ per dollar out there, yet some folks are just never happy. It doesn't matter how good it gets, it's not good enough for them.

Last edited by normhead; 02-04-2017 at 08:29 AM.
02-04-2017, 11:54 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Then why doesn't he just buy what he wants?

Maybe Pentax owns his mind and he can't conceive of getting what he wants from a camera brand other than Pentax. OP, open your mind, there's more than Pentax in the world.

Just another 'Pentax should do what it does, and everything everyone else does too." thread.

It's not enough that the K-1 gives me IQ I thought I would never have been able to afford, good enough to end my thoughts of picking up a used 645D. Good enough, that for most of what I do it's overkill and I tend to use it as a "big gun" and leave it home when smaller will be better, and by far the best IQ per dollar out there, yet some folks are just never happy. It doesn't matter how good it gets, it's not good enough for them.
I'm not sure that's fair.

It's not like there's an identical manufacturer that offers retro designs. I have similar feelings with Pentax video. I like my lenses (I could adapt them, but then I lose AF, which is a deal breaker). No one makes lenses quite like the FA Limited lenses if I just wanted to sell everything. There's Canon and Nikon and Fuji, but SR and its integrated features (astrotracer, composition adjustment, AA filter simulator) are not something I want to give up.

If I had more money, I'd consider the Sony A7rii, but I haven't seen any weathersealing claims, and I'm sceptical of electronic viewfinders, and the system looks to be more expensive.
02-04-2017, 12:03 PM - 1 Like   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithedreamer Quote
I'm not sure that's fair.

It's not like there's an identical manufacturer that offers retro designs. I have similar feelings with Pentax video. I like my lenses (I could adapt them, but then I lose AF, which is a deal breaker). No one makes lenses quite like the FA Limited lenses if I just wanted to sell everything. There's Canon and Nikon and Fuji, but SR and its integrated features (astrotracer, composition adjustment, AA filter simulator) are not something I want to give up.

If I had more money, I'd consider the Sony A7rii, but I haven't seen any weathersealing claims, and I'm sceptical of electronic viewfinders, and the system looks to be more expensive.
I was looking at a Panasonic FZ1000. I made the mistake of looking through the viewfinder inside the store. First i felt dizzy, then I felt sick. I know what you're saying.
02-04-2017, 12:06 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Who's pushing buttons while spinning dials? With a K-1 you shoot in M mode, you spin front dial for shutter speed, back e wheel for aperture and set your top wheel to ISO, which you shouldn't be changing much. Or you can set your top wheel to ev compensation if you prefer. But I'm not holding down buttons and spinning wheels.
"than pushing dedicated ISO/Exp.Comp. button with index finger and simultaneously rotating dial with a thumb. "

Read what I was replying to.

I know how the K1 works, I own one. It is not faster in M than the Fuji X-T1. The dials are in different places, but that is all. The K1 has spectacular ergonomics for a modern brick with buttons DSLR style camera.
02-04-2017, 01:33 PM - 2 Likes   #119
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I will just add that if folks are holding down the iso or EV comp buttons and spinning the dials, in my opinion, they are doing it wrong. Tap either of those buttons once, spin the e dial and tap again. Done. Want to go to auto iso or rezero the EV comp meter? Tap either button once and hit the green button.

Done.

Really hard to imagine how it could be easier, but I bow to other's choices. It really is about what works best for you as a photographer.
02-06-2017, 05:38 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Want to go to auto iso or rezero the EV comp meter? Tap either button once and hit the green button.
Sounds interesting but i can't reproduce it. When i press the iso-button and then the green button, nothing happens (in M mode on my K3). Am i misunderstanding something?
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