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04-16-2019, 03:08 PM   #1
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ES Warping?

I was just testing in my garden some ES goodness with the KP, and it appears to be warping some shots when doing High Continuous Burst), please see below;

(taken in order of burst)





^^ One burst


And then this double burst;




You might see the warping more if visiting flickr and using left and right arrow keys... I dunno. Anyway, it's definitely there, I could see it quite obviously at the time the shot was taken when I reviewed it. I always knew ES was screwy under certain indoor artificial lighting, this is the first time I've seen it being weird outdoors. So what gives?

Taken with a Tak135, Av mode.

Is there a limit to safe shutter speeds or something? Or not getting all the EXIF data such as aperture affects it?

---------- Post added 04-17-19 at 08:12 AM ----------

Yeah it's hard to see any distortion when the images are laid out like this, it's quite pronounced when toggling left to right, some appear quite squished.

Go grab the files here and look in a picture viewer toggling the shots quickly and you'll see it's quite bad, especially the last two, one appears squished!

Microsoft OneDrive - Access files anywhere. Create docs with free Office Online.

04-16-2019, 03:21 PM   #2
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ES will interact poorly with anything moving -- side-to-side motion will show skewing and up-down motion will show elongation or compression. (Try using ES on a car driving past you to really see the skew or try using ES on a spinning fan for some really crazy warping.)

The root cause is that there's a significant delay between the exposure of the first row of pixels and the last row because the pixel-reading hardware needs time to handle each row.
04-16-2019, 04:24 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Yeah it's hard to see any distortion when the images are laid out like this, it's quite pronounced when toggling left to right, some appear quite squished.
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Go grab the files here and look in a picture viewer toggling the shots quickly and you'll see it's quite bad, especially the last two, one appears squished!
I took a look, but with the change of camera position between shots, it is sort of hard to discriminate that from any warp that might be going on.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-16-2019 at 04:31 PM.
04-16-2019, 05:02 PM   #4
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Can you point it out to me, I’m not familiar with the term or how it presents. Maybe circle the area I’m supposed to look at. Thanks

04-16-2019, 11:11 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
ES will interact poorly with anything moving -- side-to-side motion will show skewing and up-down motion will show elongation or compression. (Try using ES on a car driving past you to really see the skew or try using ES on a spinning fan for some really crazy warping.)

The root cause is that there's a significant delay between the exposure of the first row of pixels and the last row because the pixel-reading hardware needs time to handle each row.
Thanks, sounds like its a common issue. But I'm not really moving here, just using High Continuous Burst in ES mode pointing at a bush (in plenty of light).

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I took a look, but with the change of camera position between shots, it is sort of hard to discriminate that from any warp that might be going on.


Steve
So there are two bursts, one was 3 shots, the other 2, just compare each burst set individually (ie dont compare all 5 in a row). The last burst of 2 show the worst warp (the last pic looks squished by comparison), but you really need to toggle the image quickly back and forth to see it, it was blazing obvious at the time I took it, I was like 'wth is that!?', and then back at my computer I can see it easily if I toggle the between the images quickly, how I have them laid out here doesn't work. Remember, I'm standing in each burst set still, there's like a millisecond between each burst shot (obviously I took a break between the two sets, you can tell the filename leaps to a new number), so the warping isn't an account for difference in framing, it legit looks odd and warped compared to say a MS burst shot.

QuoteOriginally posted by PancakeFlipper Quote
Can you point it out to me, Iím not familiar with the term or how it presents. Maybe circle the area Iím supposed to look at. Thanks
I just recommend you download the files (not via flickr that won't work, but via the Onedrive link), and then use whatever pictureviewer you have and toggle quickly through each burst set and see how the final shots in particular look warped.

I think it looks a little like SSS shape going across some of the frames compared to others that look fine.

I think I can replicate it with something better like a wall with straight lines, I'm just not able to do it right now.
04-16-2019, 11:26 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I was just testing in my garden some ES goodness with the KP, and it appears to be warping some shots when doing High Continuous Burst), please see below;



(taken in order of burst)











^^ One burst





And then this double burst;









You might see the warping more if visiting flickr and using left and right arrow keys... I dunno. Anyway, it's definitely there, I could see it quite obviously at the time the shot was taken when I reviewed it. I always knew ES was screwy under certain indoor artificial lighting, this is the first time I've seen it being weird outdoors. So what gives?



Taken with a Tak135, Av mode.



Is there a limit to safe shutter speeds or something? Or not getting all the EXIF data such as aperture affects it?

---------- Post added 04-17-19 at 08:12 AM ----------

Yeah it's hard to see any distortion when the images are laid out like this, it's quite pronounced when toggling left to right, some appear quite squished.



Go grab the files here and look in a picture viewer toggling the shots quickly and you'll see it's quite bad, especially the last two, one appears squished!



Microsoft OneDrive - Access files anywhere. Create docs with free Office Online.
It was only after reading the second post in this thread that I worked out what ES meant.

04-16-2019, 11:32 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
It was only after reading the second post in this thread that I worked out what ES meant.
Sorry, I should have explained it better, was rushing to get out the door, gotta love those 'must make a forum post before I leave the house for work' posts
04-17-2019, 02:26 AM   #8
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Alright. here's a quick gif I made with the last 2 frames. Remember, this was a burst shot in high continuous mode in ES mode, I did not move at all, nor did the camera. Second frame seems squished or shot on a slant?



I'll make the other gif now from the burst of 3 frames.

---------- Post added 04-17-19 at 07:33 PM ----------

Ok here's the burst from the set of 3 frames;



Please again, consider there was not a lot of movement by me, the camera, no wind etc, it's 'warping' as I said, kinda like waves or SSS's.

You must understand, I have been shooting burst shots in MS for a long time now, I'm pretty sure what I am seeing is some odd ES behaviour, not a difference between each frame of movement and not having SR to assist. 1/4 sec between each burst is it? I think it's about that. Do the same with mechanical shutter and there is no way this kinda deviation or weirdness going on, subtle shifts only.

I hurt my back today so I'm taking it easy, but I'll repeat this weird thing some other day, it's not the first time I noticed it going on. ES does work oddly on the KP compared to all other cameras. ES on the KP can;

- Operate from the OVF, you don't actually need to be in LV to use it.
- Use it when in AF.C mode.
- Use it with Burst Mode on.
- Is virtually silent, hardly audible if at all.

I wonder how much of this differences contributes to weirdness like this.


Last edited by BruceBanner; 04-17-2019 at 02:44 PM.
04-17-2019, 07:48 AM - 2 Likes   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Thanks, sounds like its a common issue. But I'm not really moving here, just using High Continuous Burst in ES mode pointing at a bush (in plenty of light).
No matter how bright the light or fast the shutter speed, any movement of the subject or camera that would have created blur with a shutter speed of about 1/8th second will create warp with ES mode shots.
04-17-2019, 09:39 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
No matter how bright the light or fast the shutter speed, any movement of the subject or camera that would have created blur with a shutter speed of about 1/8th second will create warp with ES mode shots.
Translation...use a tripod with ES and pray your subject does not move.

Addendum: I know that sounds silly. After all, why would someone shoot a fast shutter speed if not to stop action or allow hand-held. The answer, of course, is to allow shallow DOF in bright light. Attempting to do both with non-global ES is an example of not being able to have one's cake and eat it too.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-17-2019 at 10:17 AM.
04-17-2019, 12:09 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Thanks, sounds like its a common issue. But I'm not really moving here, just using High Continuous Burst in ES mode pointing at a bush (in plenty of light).



So there are two bursts, one was 3 shots, the other 2, just compare each burst set individually (ie dont compare all 5 in a row). The last burst of 2 show the worst warp (the last pic looks squished by comparison), but you really need to toggle the image quickly back and forth to see it, it was blazing obvious at the time I took it, I was like 'wth is that!?', and then back at my computer I can see it easily if I toggle the between the images quickly, how I have them laid out here doesn't work. Remember, I'm standing in each burst set still, there's like a millisecond between each burst shot (obviously I took a break between the two sets, you can tell the filename leaps to a new number), so the warping isn't an account for difference in framing, it legit looks odd and warped compared to say a MS burst shot.



I just recommend you download the files (not via flickr that won't work, but via the Onedrive link), and then use whatever pictureviewer you have and toggle quickly through each burst set and see how the final shots in particular look warped.

I think it looks a little like SSS shape going across some of the frames compared to others that look fine.

I think I can replicate it with something better like a wall with straight lines, I'm just not able to do it right now.
I tried the toggle and couldn’t see it. It took me a few years to see fringing and even though I know about it, I don’t notice it unless someone points it out to me. Maybe that’s a good thing

Thanks for trying, there is so much to learn understand.
04-17-2019, 02:39 PM   #12
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Woke up this morning and my gifs have died... wow... nice :/

Anyone see the gifs? Shall I develop them again?

---------- Post added 04-18-19 at 07:46 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by PancakeFlipper Quote
I tried the toggle and couldnít see it. It took me a few years to see fringing and even though I know about it, I donít notice it unless someone points it out to me. Maybe thatís a good thing

Thanks for trying, there is so much to learn understand.
Reuploaded gifs, not sure how long they hang about for. Here they are again below;





The first one demonstrates massive distortion, its like the frame is tilted back, the second is subtler but its definitely a kinda 'bendyness'.

I should do a MS and ES burst and compare, you will see there is way more movement between the frames in the ES burst vs MS burst.
04-18-2019, 04:24 AM   #13
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And the gifs are dead again. Meh, I'll sort it another day.
04-19-2019, 05:17 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
And the gifs are dead again. Meh, I'll sort it another day.
Thanks for trying. I know for me, one day I’ll be doing something and then all of a sudden the light will turn on and I’ll know what your talking about
Reading thing like this really helps me with my understanding, even if it’s a year later (now I’ll be looking at the Brenizer again, thanks there too ��)
04-19-2019, 09:07 AM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I was just testing in my garden some ES goodness with the KP, and it appears to be warping some shots when doing High Continuous Burst), please see below;

(taken in order of burst)

^^ One burst

And then this double burst;

You might see the warping more if visiting flickr and using left and right arrow keys... I dunno. Anyway, it's definitely there, I could see it quite obviously at the time the shot was taken when I reviewed it. I always knew ES was screwy under certain indoor artificial lighting, this is the first time I've seen it being weird outdoors. So what gives?

Taken with a Tak135, Av mode.

Is there a limit to safe shutter speeds or something? Or not getting all the EXIF data such as aperture affects it?
There is a known problem with Electronic Shutters - research "rolling shutter" on the Internet. No matter what shutter speed you select, reading the sensor takes something like 1/15-th second, so the top row is read 1/30-th second before the middle row, which is read 1/30-th second before the bottom row. If no motion is involved, this is not a problem, but some kind of warping always occurs if any motion is involved. The photo below, which I took several years ago with my Q-7, shows how dramatic the problem can be.


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