Live View image sharpness

MJ43 · 03-25-2021, 01:01 PM

Today's effort - shot later so dark. Tweaked in Affinity. I think this is as good as the Multiplier lens combo will do. I have to say I am happy. Today Live view was unusable the moon appears as a bright white object with no detail. Can you turn the brightness down in Live view? I could see no detail so focus was wind the lens to the end. I will try again tomorrow and save images as RAW. Not tried post processing RAW images.
Aperture F8 or F11, I twiddled, it was dark and forgot to count clicks and make a note at 1/125, had to up the ISO to 400.
If I had set up 5 mins earlier I would have caught the ISS crossing the picture. I managed to get a very hurried snap as I got outside but ended up with a white squiggle on a dark background. No chance to set camera up or frame the shot. Will have to keep an eye on the ISS and try next time it passes overhead
Flickr

Last edited by MJ43; 03-25-2021 at 01:23 PM.

**Henrico** · 03-25-2021, 01:16 PM

You better put off shake reduction, use 12 sec timer and high ISO 800 / F8-F11 aperture. In case you shoot JPEG try extra sharpening -2. You better should RAW so you can do the tweaking in post.

Use a sturdy tripod, focus in live view (12x magnification) and do not use focus peaking.

You also better under exposure a bit so all the high lights will be captured in the histogram.

Cold clear nights with low humidity and no smog are helpful also... The higher the moon is in the sky, the less atmosphere the light has to pass.

Have a nice try!

**ramseybuckeye** · 03-25-2021, 03:28 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by MJ43

Today's effort - shot later so dark. Tweaked in Affinity. I think this is as good as the Multiplier lens combo will do. I have to say I am happy. Today Live view was unusable the moon appears as a bright white object with no detail. Can you turn the brightness down in Live view? I could see no detail so focus was wind the lens to the end. I will try again tomorrow and save images as RAW. Not tried post processing RAW images.

[/URL]

Display brightness is in wrench menu page 2. Live view should be able to handle that easily and with magnification and focus peaking you should see edge detail, I would try the extract edge setting of focus peaking, if the moon is too white it may not show up though. Did you know that you have Exposure set at +0.3 EV?

MJ43 · 03-25-2021, 03:50 PM - **1 Like**

@ramseybuckeye - thanks I will have a look at display brightness tomorrow. Clouded over now so little to see in the sky. I hadn't noticed the EV setting - I must have left it from the other day when playing with catkins

stevebrot · 03-25-2021, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by MJ43

I tweaked the image in Affinity - other than the dust spot - maybe it isn't so bad.
Still plan to have another go this evening.
Flickr

With any luck the results will improve.

You may want to temper expectations a bit though. "Carl Zeiss Jena" in the lens name probably does not indicate a connection to the Carl Zeiss company that made lenses in Jena, East Germany. Indication is that these are generic Japanese zooms from the 1980s into the early 1990s with the CZJ name and sometimes offered as "Jenazoom".

The lenses are usually identical to house brand and off-brand product of the time with optical quality consistent with lower price. While not bad, optically, your lens may not be capable of great performance, particularly when coupled with a teleconverter. Below are are links to a related thread on this site as well as one at the manual lens forum site:

Carl Zeiss Jena 70-210 - PentaxForums.com

That said, it may turn out that your lens is better than average. I have read reports both ways.

Steve

**GUB** · 03-25-2021, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by MJ43

Can you turn the brightness down in Live view? I could see no detail so focus was wind the lens to the end.

From memory put your exposure meter in spot mode and make sure that spot is on the moon.

MJ43 · 03-26-2021, 12:52 AM

@stevebrot - I can't remember what I paid for the lens , it was an EBay buy 4 or 5 years back, either £40 or £70. Other than being manual focus and the zoom slide being a little loose so using the lens at an angle is a problem, I do like it. I did a bit of searching when I bought it and have a PDF of the sales brochure for the lens but can't find it at the moment and there is very little info on the lens. It probably is as you say a rebadge.
Until I got the 55-300 PLM this month, it was my main tele lens though I haven't done a back to back comparison with the PLM - I will have to try that. I did try the PLM with the multiplier but the focus didn't work - so no moon shot with that combo to compare.
An old lens and a £6 multiplier off EBay will have its limits - I am enjoying finding the limits whilst learning how to use the KP.

In terms of good 300mm lenses I have yet to see anything match my daughters Canon EF 300mm f2.8 L IS II USM (best long lens that I have ever used). For about 100th of the price my little Jena doesn't do too badly and I would say if I get the focus right , the wind is blowing in the right direction and you squint a bit, it can live with her CANON EF 100-400MM F/4.5-5.6L IS II USM.

**GUB** · 03-26-2021, 02:29 AM

It is funny the little things - your moon is upside down!
I was out there tonight with a newly acquired FA 400 5.6 trying to decide whether an A 2X-L teleconverter was worth the effort compared to cropping. I felt it wasn't.
My point above about having your metering set to spot does work. This shot at f16 without TC

**acoufap** · 03-26-2021, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by GUB

From memory put your exposure meter in spot mode and make sure that spot is on the moon.

As far as I see it, a K or M lens is used. For these lenses only center weighted metering is availlble and changing the exposure shows no impact of on the displayed image - unfortunately. My guess is that even dimming the display will not help, because the displayed image will show overexposure in the bright moon area.

IMO no way to make it better. From A lenses on, the shown image will be adjusted as far as I remember. Also as far as I remember my old K-5 adjusts / simulates a correct representation of the image with exposure adjustments on the display even if it's a K or M lens.

According to tests I did some years ago, K-1 and KP can't do this. Hope I don't tell any nonsense here ...

MJ43 · 03-26-2021, 04:03 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by GUB

It is funny the little things - your moon is upside down!

When in Australia a few years back - I would come out of the hotel and always go the wrong way. The references were wrong - the sun and moon, oddly the wife who can't navigate up here was fine down there.

Seeing your image I am going to have another go tonight if it clears, overcast and raining at the moment.

**GUB** · 03-26-2021, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by acoufap

As far as I see it, a K or M lens is used. For these lenses only center weighted metering is availlble and changing the exposure shows no impact of on the displayed image - unfortunately. My guess is that even dimming the display will not help, because the displayed image will show overexposure in the bright moon area.

IMO no way to make it better. From A lenses on, the shown image will be adjusted as far as I remember. Also as far as I remember my old K-5 adjusts / simulates a correct representation of the image with exposure adjustments on the display even if it's a K or M lens.

According to tests I did some years ago, K-1 and KP can't do this. Hope I don't tell any nonsense here ...

Yeah you are right about that metering. But if the OP centred on the moon the screen darkens to a correct exposure of the moon. At least that is what I am used to in the K-1, Q and K01.

EDIT Naaa I went and checked and I can still have spot or mixed AE with a totally manual lens. That is on the K01 and the K-1. The moon has gone behind clouds but I suspect the spot setting is more effective. I know I have seen or been involved in discussions on this somewhere here but it has all slipped out of memory. I think some model cameras work this way others don't.

stevebrot · 03-26-2021, 10:36 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by GUB

From memory put your exposure meter in spot mode and make sure that spot is on the moon.

You are correct...spot metering is always available, both in live view and with viewfinder, regardless of lens type.

Since they are using a K/M lens, the exposure mode should be M and Looney 11 rule* with no exposure comp would be the easiest exposure strategy. As long as the exposure compensation is off, the live view brightness should self-regulate to a usable level; changing to spot metering will allow for more focused regulation. Exposure comp in M mode is strange and with K/M lenses is only applied with stop-down metering, but will also affect screen brightness. With a K/M lens in M mode, exposure compensation might also be used to reduce screen brightness.

Steve

* Looney 11 is the lunar variant of the Sunny 16 rule, meaning f/11 with shutter speed being 1/ISO. Looney 11 rule - Wikipedia

**acoufap** · 03-26-2021, 12:06 PM

@stevebrot, @GUB ... checked it and yes, you are right - spot metering is availabe and adjusts the level of the image brightness shown on the display. Many thanks!

If brightness is sufficiently reduced to recognize moon details we can focus at I'm not sure.

And yes the image shown is "auto" regulating. But changes of the triangle exposure parameters or EV comp using K or M lenses doesn't change neither that auto regulated image nor the corresponding live view histogram.

The exposure itself is done correctly with all EV-adjustments we do. So test shots may be the best way to check if the focus fits.

MJ43 · 03-26-2021, 01:51 PM - **2 Likes**

Last one and I am now done with moon shots - DA 55-300 PLM is as good as if not better than the 2xmultiplier/old lens combo. UK version of the NZ moon but in this case the right way up.
ISS came past again today but though I was ready it was too high relative to the moon to get both in shot.
Flickr

MJ43 · 03-27-2021, 09:57 AM

Spoke too soon - my challenge is now to try and match the clarity of this image using the DA 55 - 300 PLM
Or this shot using a KP

03-26-2021, 04:03 AM	#26
GUB Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Wanganui Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,760	Originally posted by acoufap As far as I see it, a K or M lens is used. For these lenses only center weighted metering is availlble and changing the exposure shows no impact of on the displayed image - unfortunately. My guess is that even dimming the display will not help, because the displayed image will show overexposure in the bright moon area. IMO no way to make it better. From A lenses on, the shown image will be adjusted as far as I remember. Also as far as I remember my old K-5 adjusts / simulates a correct representation of the image with exposure adjustments on the display even if it's a K or M lens. According to tests I did some years ago, K-1 and KP can't do this. Hope I don't tell any nonsense here ... Yeah you are right about that metering. But if the OP centred on the moon the screen darkens to a correct exposure of the moon. At least that is what I am used to in the K-1, Q and K01. EDIT Naaa I went and checked and I can still have spot or mixed AE with a totally manual lens. That is on the K01 and the K-1. The moon has gone behind clouds but I suspect the spot setting is more effective. I know I have seen or been involved in discussions on this somewhere here but it has all slipped out of memory. I think some model cameras work this way others don't. Last edited by GUB; 03-26-2021 at 04:25 AM.

03-26-2021, 10:36 AM - 1 Like	#27
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by GUB From memory put your exposure meter in spot mode and make sure that spot is on the moon. You are correct...spot metering is always available, both in live view and with viewfinder, regardless of lens type. Since they are using a K/M lens, the exposure mode should be M and Looney 11 rule* with no exposure comp would be the easiest exposure strategy. As long as the exposure compensation is off, the live view brightness should self-regulate to a usable level; changing to spot metering will allow for more focused regulation. Exposure comp in M mode is strange and with K/M lenses is only applied with stop-down metering, but will also affect screen brightness. With a K/M lens in M mode, exposure compensation might also be used to reduce screen brightness. Steve * Looney 11 is the lunar variant of the Sunny 16 rule, meaning f/11 with shutter speed being 1/ISO. Looney 11 rule - Wikipedia Last edited by stevebrot; 03-26-2021 at 10:47 AM.

03-26-2021, 01:51 PM - 2 Likes	#29
MJ43 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 97 Original Poster	Last one and I am now done with moon shots - DA 55-300 PLM is as good as if not better than the 2xmultiplier/old lens combo. UK version of the NZ moon but in this case the right way up. ISS came past again today but though I was ready it was too high relative to the moon to get both in shot. Flickr Last edited by MJ43; 03-26-2021 at 03:52 PM.

03-27-2021, 09:57 AM	#30
MJ43 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 97 Original Poster	Spoke too soon - my challenge is now to try and match the clarity of this image using the DA 55 - 300 PLM Or this shot using a KP Last edited by MJ43; 03-30-2021 at 02:16 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
live view noise and smc dfa 100mm f2.8 macro lens not focusing in live view	tommygunn84	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	7	11-24-2016 08:59 PM
Typical live view humming, when not in live view.	Unregistered User	Pentax K-1 & K-1 II	8	05-05-2016 02:20 AM
Picture sharpness in Live View vs. recorded in play back	luma	Pentax K-S1 & K-S2	4	04-11-2016 05:27 AM
Sharpness, Fine Sharpness, Extra Sharpness	Taviali	Pentax K-5 & K-5 II	8	03-31-2012 12:56 PM
k-7 sharpness / fine sharpness / fine sharpness 2	mattdm	Pentax DSLR Discussion	10	12-12-2010 08:10 AM

03-25-2021, 01:01 PM	#16
MJ43 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 97 Original Poster	Today's effort - shot later so dark. Tweaked in Affinity. I think this is as good as the Multiplier lens combo will do. I have to say I am happy. Today Live view was unusable the moon appears as a bright white object with no detail. Can you turn the brightness down in Live view? I could see no detail so focus was wind the lens to the end. I will try again tomorrow and save images as RAW. Not tried post processing RAW images. Aperture F8 or F11, I twiddled, it was dark and forgot to count clicks and make a note at 1/125, had to up the ISO to 400. If I had set up 5 mins earlier I would have caught the ISS crossing the picture. I managed to get a very hurried snap as I got outside but ended up with a white squiggle on a dark background. No chance to set camera up or frame the shot. Will have to keep an eye on the ISS and try next time it passes overhead Flickr Last edited by MJ43; 03-25-2021 at 01:23 PM.

03-25-2021, 01:16 PM	#17
Henrico Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Utrecht Photos: Gallery Posts: 255	You better put off shake reduction, use 12 sec timer and high ISO 800 / F8-F11 aperture. In case you shoot JPEG try extra sharpening -2. You better should RAW so you can do the tweaking in post. Use a sturdy tripod, focus in live view (12x magnification) and do not use focus peaking. You also better under exposure a bit so all the high lights will be captured in the histogram. Cold clear nights with low humidity and no smog are helpful also... The higher the moon is in the sky, the less atmosphere the light has to pass. Have a nice try!

03-25-2021, 03:28 PM - 1 Like	#18
ramseybuckeye Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hampstead, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 17,291	Originally posted by MJ43 Today's effort - shot later so dark. Tweaked in Affinity. I think this is as good as the Multiplier lens combo will do. I have to say I am happy. Today Live view was unusable the moon appears as a bright white object with no detail. Can you turn the brightness down in Live view? I could see no detail so focus was wind the lens to the end. I will try again tomorrow and save images as RAW. Not tried post processing RAW images. [/URL] Display brightness is in wrench menu page 2. Live view should be able to handle that easily and with magnification and focus peaking you should see edge detail, I would try the extract edge setting of focus peaking, if the moon is too white it may not show up though. Did you know that you have Exposure set at +0.3 EV?

03-25-2021, 03:50 PM - 1 Like	#19
MJ43 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 97 Original Poster	@ramseybuckeye - thanks I will have a look at display brightness tomorrow. Clouded over now so little to see in the sky. I hadn't noticed the EV setting - I must have left it from the other day when playing with catkins

03-25-2021, 04:01 PM	#20
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by MJ43 I tweaked the image in Affinity - other than the dust spot - maybe it isn't so bad. Still plan to have another go this evening. Flickr With any luck the results will improve. You may want to temper expectations a bit though. "Carl Zeiss Jena" in the lens name probably does not indicate a connection to the Carl Zeiss company that made lenses in Jena, East Germany. Indication is that these are generic Japanese zooms from the 1980s into the early 1990s with the CZJ name and sometimes offered as "Jenazoom". The lenses are usually identical to house brand and off-brand product of the time with optical quality consistent with lower price. While not bad, optically, your lens may not be capable of great performance, particularly when coupled with a teleconverter. Below are are links to a related thread on this site as well as one at the manual lens forum site: Carl Zeiss Jena 70-210 - PentaxForums.com That said, it may turn out that your lens is better than average. I have read reports both ways. Steve

03-25-2021, 08:35 PM	#21
GUB Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Wanganui Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,760	Originally posted by MJ43 Can you turn the brightness down in Live view? I could see no detail so focus was wind the lens to the end. From memory put your exposure meter in spot mode and make sure that spot is on the moon.

03-26-2021, 12:52 AM	#22
MJ43 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 97 Original Poster	@stevebrot - I can't remember what I paid for the lens , it was an EBay buy 4 or 5 years back, either £40 or £70. Other than being manual focus and the zoom slide being a little loose so using the lens at an angle is a problem, I do like it. I did a bit of searching when I bought it and have a PDF of the sales brochure for the lens but can't find it at the moment and there is very little info on the lens. It probably is as you say a rebadge. Until I got the 55-300 PLM this month, it was my main tele lens though I haven't done a back to back comparison with the PLM - I will have to try that. I did try the PLM with the multiplier but the focus didn't work - so no moon shot with that combo to compare. An old lens and a £6 multiplier off EBay will have its limits - I am enjoying finding the limits whilst learning how to use the KP. In terms of good 300mm lenses I have yet to see anything match my daughters Canon EF 300mm f2.8 L IS II USM (best long lens that I have ever used). For about 100th of the price my little Jena doesn't do too badly and I would say if I get the focus right , the wind is blowing in the right direction and you squint a bit, it can live with her CANON EF 100-400MM F/4.5-5.6L IS II USM.

03-26-2021, 03:57 AM	#24
acoufap Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Munich, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,187	Originally posted by GUB From memory put your exposure meter in spot mode and make sure that spot is on the moon. As far as I see it, a K or M lens is used. For these lenses only center weighted metering is availlble and changing the exposure shows no impact of on the displayed image - unfortunately. My guess is that even dimming the display will not help, because the displayed image will show overexposure in the bright moon area. IMO no way to make it better. From A lenses on, the shown image will be adjusted as far as I remember. Also as far as I remember my old K-5 adjusts / simulates a correct representation of the image with exposure adjustments on the display even if it's a K or M lens. According to tests I did some years ago, K-1 and KP can't do this. Hope I don't tell any nonsense here ...

03-26-2021, 04:03 AM - 2 Likes	#25
MJ43 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 97 Original Poster	Originally posted by GUB It is funny the little things - your moon is upside down! When in Australia a few years back - I would come out of the hotel and always go the wrong way. The references were wrong - the sun and moon, oddly the wife who can't navigate up here was fine down there. Seeing your image I am going to have another go tonight if it clears, overcast and raining at the moment.

03-26-2021, 12:06 PM	#28
acoufap Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Munich, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,187	@stevebrot, @GUB ... checked it and yes, you are right - spot metering is availabe and adjusts the level of the image brightness shown on the display. Many thanks! If brightness is sufficiently reduced to recognize moon details we can focus at I'm not sure. And yes the image shown is "auto" regulating. But changes of the triangle exposure parameters or EV comp using K or M lenses doesn't change neither that auto regulated image nor the corresponding live view histogram. The exposure itself is done correctly with all EV-adjustments we do. So test shots may be the best way to check if the focus fits.