[Kevin Pritchard]

Hi Everyone,
I have started on a journey to make sharp photos with 450-500mm lenses. I watch birds, and until now have not considered taking photos because technology was very limiting. Now I see so many people using teles and zooms, even hand held, and I want to give it a go. My first step, however, must surely be to get sharp pictures under the most favourable conditions and I am struggling.
My set up is on a solid Manfrotto tripod, Wimberley gimbal head locked down, Arca Swiss plate. I have shutter speeds 1/1000 - 1/2000 second, IS/OS off, and I am trying both wide-open at f/6.3 - 8, or 2 stops down. AF almost never nails the focus - sometimes slightly in front of best plane and sometimes behind. MF is much more consistent. Using LV I don't see how "front-focus" or "back focus" can occur - and in any case careful MF with spot focus and Assist is almost as good as zoomed LV. So, I doubt there is an issue with the register - experts, please correct me if this is wrong!. The best results are MF, and zoomed LV.
Touching the shutter, or focusing manually, causes vibrations that take a few seconds to die down. I do not yet have a wireless release so I am trying to find a camera setting that avoids shaking the camera by touching the shutter button.
I had thought that mirror-lock-up (MLU), electronic shutter (ES), and zoomed Live View (LV) would be a good setting - however, the ES blacks out LV. So I went back to mechanical shutter.
I wanted to lock the mirror up then use a 12s delay timer - however the two settings appear to be incompatible. If I use the delay, the mirror begins in down position, and the mirror moves just before shutter; i.e., just in the normal way. The images aren't adequately sharp - much better than MLU and touching shutter, but not good.
Can anyone please suggest better settings that will avoid vibration? Yes, I will get a wireless release, but knowing how to do the best camera settings will still be useful.
Kevin

[UncleVanya]

The KP has WiFi control options. Can you use that? That solves the remote issues I would think. Also I think 2 second self timer raises the mirror sooner relative to shutter than 12 but I could be wrong. Have you carefully adjusted your focus fine tuning? You should be able to get it close - particularly for a specific distance/focal length.

What lens?

[pschlute]

Using LV I don't see how "front-focus" or "back focus" can occur

Generally you are correct.

Touching the shutter, or focusing manually, causes vibrations that take a few seconds to die down. I do not yet have a wireless release so I am trying to find a camera setting that avoids shaking the camera by touching the shutter button

Have you tried 2 second timer ? Although a wireless remote would be a better proposition.

I had thought that mirror-lock-up (MLU), electronic shutter (ES), and zoomed Live View (LV) would be a good setting - however, the ES blacks out LV. So I went back to mechanical shutter.

MLU cannot be used in LV at all....the mirror is already up. The ES should not interfere with the Live View at all.How does it black out LV? ES is a LV only mode. At shutter speeds you are using (1,000 +) there is no real need to use it to be honest.

I would do some test shots with the 2 sec time or get a remote. It is possible the Autofocus needs a Fine Adjustment in viewfinder mode, but this will not affect LV autofocus or LV 100% zoomed focussing.

[northcoastgreg]

Can anyone please suggest better settings that will avoid vibration?

I'm rather surprised you're having trouble vibration at 1/1000 sec with a 450-500mm type lens. I shoot a 420mm lens with the KP at speeds as low as 1/160 and don't even use a tripod and haven't run into any issues with vibration or soft images. Although the lens/converter combo I use (the DA* 300 + DA 1.4x converter) aren't all that heavy and that might help. Have you tried using SR, either hand-held or on the tripod? The SR in the KP is superb. I'm not sure what do about the fact that your AF doesn't seem to provide accurate results. That obviously makes getting sharp images very challenging.

[photoptimist]

1. AF systems don't work that well on lenses that are f/6.3 or f/8 wide open.

2. AF systems tend to lock on to high contrast features in the scene rather than what the photographer thinks is important. AF tends to lock on to strong bright-dark edges, not subtle contrasts on objects.

[kypfer]

My "default" settings are 1/1500sec @ f/8 for my Sigma 150-500mm f/5-6.3, lens stabilization enabled, camera SR disabled, handheld and years of practice.
If you're going to use a lens like this on a tripod, the tripod needs to be relatively massive to eliminate any residual vibration … one of the disadvantages of smaller sensors is that any camera movement becomes amplified!
If I am using a tripod or other support, I use it purely as a support for the weight. I keep one or two hands firmly on the camera/lens to act as dampers
If you want a budget "hands-off" support, you'll probably not do better than a bean-bag or similar … good for working from a hide, not so useful if out in the bush

[luftfluss]

You don't happen to have a filter on the front of your lens, do you? Sometimes that is the cause of poor sharpness.

[mlag]

Basically your start settings look OK...

What lens are you using?
- mirror lens? Typically F8 and hard to focus..., low contrast, ...
- has the lens a tripod mount or only the camera (bad, instable balance with long lens)? Bean bag might be better...supports lens and camera.
- lens hood mounted? (Reduce stray light, improve contrast)
- very old lens ? sometimes less good optics on newer high res digital 24Mpixel camera’s compared to film camera’s...
- how high is your ISO setting ? ( keep it below 6400 or sensor noise will increase dramatically, crushing sharpness) With 1/1000 or faster and F8 ...F11 you must be in bright light conditions otherwise iso will jump up). Evening or winter light will push you to use 1/250 , <F8 and max iso3200 and maybe activate shake reduction... While you wish to be able to use 1/1000 or faster to shoot birds or sports action with tele's , it isn’t always possible...
- if you are in a hot, sunny area , ...air turbulence can ruin your shots on long range. It works as an extra lens, however not sharp one...adding deformation.

Use Focus peaking (=highlight the sharp zone on) live view helps a lot avoiding focus misses.

Sometimes the use of center spot (aim on your subject) or center zone focus point(s) improve automatic focussing, to avoid camera de-focusses on background or nearby objects like leaves or branches near a bird... etc... on long range the distance difference between subject and background can be relative small and camera might misjudge what to put in focus, hence limit focus on center/subject.

2s sec timer, remote or wifi controlled firing are indeed helpfull.

Post an example picture, the exif data in it might help us to judge....

[normhead]

I need to look at a photo to guess what you might be having trouble with. But a few things, single point AF-s focussed on the eye. Shoot bursts. Birds heads move quickly, give them time to move thier heads in and out of the focal plane.
If you don't like your pictures, get closer. I rarely shoot at 1600 ISO, for birds I prefer 400 ISO if possible.

[Des]

If you don't like your pictures, get closer.

^ Even with a sharp lens and excellent technique (following the helpful advice people have given above), focus accuracy and resolution will fall off as the subject gets smaller in the frame. I have an FA*300 which is really sharp, but for small-medium waders at 50m (with or without TC), the best I can really hope for is an ID shot.

With mediocre lenses, the falloff is faster. I used to have a Sigma 170-500mm zoom that was sharp enough with a close subject, but I could never get a really sharp image beyond about 15m (if that).

One other thing not mentioned so far is processing. RAW files can be disappointing, but even some light-touch editing can bring them up nicely. Most people would regard PP as an integral part of long lens photography these days.

With the KP, while I try to keep the ISO as low as practicable, I will take the ISO to 3200, or 6400 where necessary. They will generally clean up well with DxO PL. Some examples with the KP at 3200 with 3 different lenses.

Sigma 400mm f5.6


FA*300mm + TC


DA 55-300 PLM at 300mm


BTW, each of these is handheld, the first and third at slow-ish shutter speeds (1/250th and 1/125th sec respectively). Yes, there will be plenty of throwaways at these speeds, but perched birds are often very still, if you can capture that moment.

[mlag]

.

Sigma 400mm f5.6


FA*300mm + TC


DA 55-300 PLM at 300mm


BTW, each of these is handheld, the first and third at slow-ish shutter speeds (1/250th and 1/125th sec respectively). Yes, there will be plenty of throwaways at these speeds, but perched birds are often very still, if you can capture that moment.

Your third picture picture contains another tip for possible improvement in some tele shooting : use a flash.
It freezes movement, and compensates for low light...

[Sandy Hancock]

Nailing focus on a small target with a long lens isn't easy. The people who are really good at it spend years (and lots of money!) getting to that point.

I'm no birder, but my occasional attempts with the KP have been surprisingly successful. These are all with the DFA150-450; I suspect the camera interacts better with native glass.

[ramseybuckeye]

I do shoot birds when I can and I can't shoot on a tripod, maybe if it was on a nest. I use a KP, DA 1.4 rear converter with a DA*300 or DA 55-300PLM, so effectively at 420mm. I usually use center point focus and recompose, in AF-S or AF-C, and usually try to focus on the eyes. I find that the shake reduction helps a lot, and some of these shots were taken from a kayak, so there is always a little movement, no way could I use a tripod in the kayak, unless, I was in completely still water, and I am perfectly still. And of course if you can get a picture of a bird that doesn't need cropping, it's great. And you must also remember that birds move and often the tree branches they may be in may also be moving, so there is a lot of technique involved, you have to be comfortable with your skills, and myself, I have days when I'm better or worse than normal. I usually shoot birds in shutter priority, set the ISO to auto up to 5000 or 6400, depending on the available light.

This Osprey was up in a treetop on a little island, I was in the kayak timing waves from a boat's wake, maybe 70 feet away, cropped, KP, 1.4TC, and DA*300, f6.3, 1/640, ISO 200.


This was a little easier, the Yellow Rumped Warbler was only 15-20 feet away, shot from my truck window, cropped, KP, 1.4TC, and DA*300, f5.6, 1/400, ISO 640. There were several of these birds, this one happened to sit still long enough to get multiple shots. Normally the smaller the bird the more they move, at least in my experience, but sometime you get lucky.


Larger birds can be easier, more to focus on. This was shot from the kayak, 20-30 feet away, I was surprised to get that close, KP, 1.4TC, and DA*300, f5.6, 1/500, ISO 160, focus was on the eye of the tricolored heron (the dark one)


And sometime you don't get the best photo, but can still be happy. The Saltmarsh Sparrow is very rare, elusive, and is on the Red Watch List due to loss of habitat and global warming raising the sea level. My chasing of this bird is one of the reason I got a kayak, and I got this photo on one of my early kayak voyages. It's not a good photo, but I'm happy to have got it, since then I've seen this species MAYBE two more times since, with one time getting a much worse photo, and the other time no chance at all to even ID for sure. Not cropped, KP, 1.4TC, and DA*300, f5.6, 1/640, ISO 200. Focus is tough in the marsh grass.

[Thagomizer]

Be aware that when shooting with electronic shutter, while the shutter speed may nominally be 1/1000 of a second, the entire frame is not exposed at the same time. It's much like the travelling curtain of a film camera in which a narrow slit passes over the frame, so that each part of the frame gets 1/1000 sec. exposure, but only as the slit travels across that part of the film. The two shots below were taken with a mirror lens at 1/2000 sec. using ES, LV and wired remote. The branch the hawk was sitting on was moving up and down in the wind, stretching the bird in the first shot compared to the second:






If I recall correctly the "read speed"of ES is in the range of tenths of a second, essentially lengthening a shutter speed in the thousands of a second by a factor of approximately 100. That is to say that the very bottom of the frame will be exposed about 1/10 sec. after the top. I believe this is what causes what's known as "rolling shutter" in video. In subjects moving rapidly in the horizontal plane, this can give them a slanted or skewed look. The rotating blades of a fan or aircraft propellor can end up looking very strange indeed.


Here's a Forum discussion of MS vs ES:

Electronic Shutter (vs Mechanical shutter) questions - PentaxForums.com

[Kevin Pritchard]

Many thanks to: Pschlute, northcoastgreg, photoptimist, kypfer, luftfuss, mlag, normhead, Des, Sandy Hancock, ramseybuckeye, Thagomizer, for great advice from you all, and inspiring photos.
Here are my technical takeaways: technique and practice are the keys to improvement. I was getting too many things wrong. Try again in brighter light (not available at present in UK mid-winter). Minimize atmospheric disturbance and do not expect sharp pictures of small birds 50m away! Work on post-processing. Centre-spot focusing (I was using it); no filter (I didn’t have one). Try not to use very high ISOs; 3200 is top end for quality pictures. 1/1000 ought not to be necessary on a tripod unless there is subject movement. SR/IS is worth a try even on a tripod. Do not assume a tripod (even a good one) is best because there can be rapid vibrations. Try hand-damping lens and camera, or try a beanbag. Forget electronic shutter, it is weird and prevents use of IS/OS. Get a remote release; for static subjects (not birds) try 2s delay timer; leave focus adjustment alone until there is definite evidence of viewfinder focus error (I don’t think there is).
Context: I have taken sharp-enough photos previously, hand-held in good light, using M 80-200 f4.5 with Sony alpha 7ii and cropped (great sensor, horrid to use, traded for KP). I have posted a few from Sony just to show I can nail MF quite often, and can PP Raw (RawTherapee, with GIMP). How amazing is that M-series lens? My KP has wonderful IQ with that and with shorter lenses, and IS works well. The issues only appeared once I tried a long lens.
Lens - Sigma 50-500, f/6.3 - the brightest UK December light was never good enough for the screw-drive AF to work well. MF worked but I need good AF. Image quality seemed good but NOT comparable to old Pentax glass at the shorter end of the zoom; my M50 1.7, FA 24-90 (v. good lens), and ancient M 80-200 were all better. I sent it back before I would be forced to pay for it, and I will get one of the Pentax lenses mentioned in the posts here – the current 150-450 or maybe DA*300 f4, with 1.4X converter. Then I will practice.
Thanks again to all for instruction - Pentax Forums is an invaluable resource.
Kevin