[robbiec]

I thought Rishi had been a bit quiet. So he's gone off and measured the resonance of the Pentax shutter and has been researching a tripod / head combo that will enhance any shutter shock
DPR cannot have a DSLR beating a MILC in image quality, it would be like an Apple fan reviewing a Wintel PC. Any and I mean any hint of a weakness will be jumped upon and amplified to the absolute maximum. So it's going to be a pincer movement of NR baked Raws and shutter shock.
Guess I'll have to send my iii back as it is inherently flawed.

[reh321]

Guess I'll have to send my iii back as it is inherently flawed.

Sell it here for half price and I will take it 'off your hands'.
Of course, I might have some competition.

[Wheatfield]

My experience is that shutter shock is rarely a problem when hand holding the camera, but once the camera is on a tripod, the potential is there. I suspect tripods aren't as good at damping vibration as flesh.
In order to tame my vertical shuttered Pentaxes, I have to use a Zone VI Standard wood tripod that weighs something like 20 pounds.
Or, shoot handheld, or don't shoot at 1/15 to 1/125 second. Shock is barely visible at 1/15 and 1/125, but is quite bad at 1/30 to 1/60th.
My K1 doesn't seem to share this malady, something I am quite grateful for.
One thing the DPREVIEW test shows is that they are not using a proper test bench.

I have tried repeatedly to produce shutter shock on my K-3, but without success. What is the secret sauce?


Steve

Use a fairly light travel tripod. If you have something like an aluminium Manfrotto so much the better. If you have a telephoto lens that mounts to the tripod you can magnify the effect quite a bit. All you need to do then is shoot at 1/30 second.

[stevebrot]

What kind of tripod do you use??
A thin, light aluminum one or a heavy wooden one?

Neither, though I did test with both my backpack and regular tripods (Slik 330DX and Giottos 9360), both with and without additional ballast applied directly to the base (where the legs attach) using a variety of lenses at the range of 1/15s to 1/200s. That said, I don't own any of the lenses that have been implicated in regards to shutter shock, so that might be clue.

I suppose I could have tried the 9360 with the boom extended.

Use a fairly light travel tripod. If you have something like an aluminium Manfrotto so much the better. If you have a telephoto lens that mounts to the tripod you can magnify the effect quite a bit. All you need to do then is shoot at 1/30 second.

I did not try adding a tripod ring to the mix.

Added: The Slik 330 weighs in at 1.41kg and the Giottos 9360 at 2.76kg as pictured above.


Steve

---

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-31-2021 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Added response to Wheatfield

[robbiec]

Sell it here for half price and I will take it 'off your hands'.
Of course, I might have some competition.

I'm sure you would Besides, I don't use it to take pictures, I just hold it in my hands and caress it lovingly as a piece of engineering art.
It's a Pentax review on DPR, there has to be some clickbait drama. I wonder, did dpthoughts need his meds changed last week? He wasn't allowed to troll the paid for video - can't have been easy for the poor fellow.

[beholder3]

My tripod is a bit of a beast to say the least. As big as carbon fibre tripods go and more expensive than the camera. Perphaps thats why it helps.

If you want no vibrations, carbon fibre is just bad. All products, no exception.

Putting the camera on a bean bag or shooting hand held would be a terrible idea. All cameras should be tested in the same way.

Talking about things you do not understand is a terrible idea. The goal is to have a good shot of the same scene.
The way the camera is "fixed" only becomes important if some incompetent interns are not able to deliver on what they are supposed to do.

[Wheatfield]

I thought Rishi had been a bit quiet. So he's gone off and measured the resonance of the Pentax shutter and has been researching a tripod / head combo that will enhance any shutter shock
DPR cannot have a DSLR beating a MILC in image quality, it would be like an Apple fan reviewing a Wintel PC. Any and I mean any hint of a weakness will be jumped upon and amplified to the absolute maximum. So it's going to be a pincer movement of NR baked Raws and shutter shock.
Guess I'll have to send my iii back as it is inherently flawed.

The thing is, if they had a proper test bench, this wouldn't be seen. I've long suspected that those clowns have something set up in the back of a garage under an airport glide path and don't do their testing until they've each finished a six pack.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2021 at 01:01 PM ----------

If you want no vibrations, carbon fibre is just bad. All products, no exception.



Talking about things you do not understand is a terrible idea. The goal is to have a good shot of the same scene.
The way the camera is "fixed" only becomes important if some incompetent interns are not able to deliver on what they are supposed to do.

A few decades ago, a buddy of mine poured a concrete bollard in his back yard and put a 3/8 bolt into it. He mounted a tripod head on that. He used it for wedding portraits.
Nothing had vibration problems on it.

[reh321]

If you want no vibrations, carbon fibre is just bad. All products, no exception.

Talking about things you do not understand is a terrible idea. The goal is to have a good shot of the same scene.
The way the camera is "fixed" only becomes important if some incompetent interns are not able to deliver on what they are supposed to do.

When I was in Grad School, the only tripod I could afford was an aluminum thing with thin spindly legs. I suppose it would have had problems, but even then I looked at slides from a ‘respectful distance’ - and my only camera was a range-finder with a leaf-shutter .... and I used the tripod mostly for photographs that I was talked into appearing in myself.

[repaap]

Absolutely. Certain combination of tripod, tripod-head and lens will have worsening effect on shutter shock vibrations.

To illustrate this, think of a plastic 1 foot long office ruler and
a) you hold this in your left hand or
b) you fix the ruler to a heavy wooden table with a clamp
Now you push the loose end down against its elasticity and then release it. Which one will vibrate more intensely and longer?


The "softness" of handholding the camera works like a dampener. When completely fixed to a tripod it will be much worse.
On the other end if you with screw the body to a massive rock it would probably also be better than a tripod.

If the dptabloid folks had any interest in producing comparable images they had done two things:
a) shot handheld while holding the camera with both hands while the wrists rest (loosely) on the tripod (not metal to metal).
b) used a beanbag
Both is easily doable and I am quite convinced it produces sharp images.


Not to mention that c) they could simply have changed the scenario to either have extra light (=shorter shutter times) or wider apertures.

Not even trying any of this shows that there is very little interest to produce comparable test images.


I also expect that different lenses will come into play. The less the barrel can wiggle, the less shutter shock you'll see. For example if you use a k-series 50 mm lens with silky smooth manual action and no wiggle room whatsoever it might be better.

Anyhow:
If any single current user is able to produce a single pixelsharp image at shutterspeeds from 1/30 to 1/60 we know the problem is between the ears of the testers.

------------------

It is typical of dptabloid to not disclose how exactly the DNG based JPEGs they do present were created. There is no officially released ACR for the K-3 III yet. This is also the reason why they did not use the Adobe default profile.
But still they images for "raw" do have filenames which suggest everything was processed by adobe ACR.
Fishy, fishy.

It is fishy.I'm not saying that there might not be shuttershock. (and you'v got m.up mode where nothing moves when you capture the image) It is just quite a bit too much to say that you can't take a sharp picture at some sutter speed, like 1/30 or 1/60th of a second. That is all. My unscientific test already says that it is faulty to say so. Unscientific means, taking my camera and hold it up and pressing the shutter, then repeat and then look, if it is sharp or not.

---------- Post added 05-31-21 at 22:55 ----------

hand held

FA 77
1/30 second



DA*16-50
1/30 second




I will not do this again. I got bored mid way. Should have perhaps stoppd down and loaded full size RAW and what not... unscientific just taking a shot and thinking, you know guys. that is just good pile of BS(I'v seen them selling that in tourist shop at San Antonio(texas) so I know what it does look like) all of this 1/30 to 1/60 th of second thing. Yes, it might excist and propably more so at some circumstance, but really...

[Wheatfield]

It is fishy.I'm not saying that there might not be shuttershock. (and you'v got m.up mode where nothing moves when you capture the image) It is just quite a bit too much to say that you can't take a sharp picture at some sutter speed, like 1/30 or 1/60th of a second. That is all. My unscientific test already says that it is faulty to say so. Unscientific means, taking my camera and hold it up and pressing the shutter, then repeat and then look, if it is sharp or not.

There is a difference between mirror slap and shutter induced vibration. I've never had a problem that I was able to identify as mirror slap with a Pentax, but shutter shock absolutely. If you are shooting handheld, it's not likely to manifest though.
It is a problem with poorly dampened tripods though. Metal ones are bad, light carbon ones are worse. Wood tripods seem to dampen the vibration off the shutter most effectively, but they are heavy for their size. Also mounting the camera to the tripod via a lens collar makes the problem worse.

[house]

Talking about things you do not understand is a terrible idea. The goal is to have a good shot of the same scene.
The way the camera is "fixed" only becomes important if some incompetent interns are not able to deliver on what they are supposed to do.

The bean bag mounted performance is of interest to very few people. Even hippies rarely lug around bean bags to stabilize their shots. Where do you draw the line? Build a sophisticated gimbal system capable of preempting shutter shock? Suspend it in gel with the prefectly tuned properties? Train for years until you can counter jerk the camera the same amount as the shutter shock?

It doesn't make sense to go beyond the normal gear and the settings available in camera. It would be a disservice to users to take extraordinary and specific measures depending on the camera.

I do hope it's a sample or combination of gear issue. I'm suspicious of the camera as I found most of the dpreview sample shots pretty poor.

[repaap]

There is a difference between mirror slap and shutter induced vibration. I've never had a problem that I was able to identify as mirror slap with a Pentax, but shutter shock absolutely. If you are shooting handheld, it's not likely to manifest though.
It is a problem with poorly dampened tripods though. Metal ones are bad, light carbon ones are worse. Wood tripods seem to dampen the vibration off the shutter most effectively, but they are heavy for their size. Also mounting the camera to the tripod via a lens collar makes the problem worse.

One pro photographer bought A7III. He used heavy wooden tripod and he got result like there was a earthquake. Shutter slam. Thou there was not mirror.

Regardless. Why I took those photos at the first place is that there will be people who actually would think that this is some sort of problem. It is not. Ofcourse there are people who just want to have justification to be able to say tgat I won’t buy this camera, because you cant take unshaken pictures, even if they put so much trouble in developing this thing.

You and me, we all know what that is.

What caused what abd shake this shake that, you know. I don’t know. All I can say that images look good, and you may even pixel peep all you want.

Instead of that, I say. Try it. I’m still just admiring what I can do with this thing. With the lenses I do have already. Eye focus, fast responsive very nice image quality. Very good SR and amazing shutter. Shutter shake my ass(pardon me). That’s all.

[Wheatfield]

One pro photographer bought A7III. He used heavy wooden tripod and he got result like there was a earthquake. Shutter slam. Thou there was not mirror.

Regardless. Why I took those photos at the first place is that there will be people who actually would think that this is some sort of problem. It is not. Ofcourse there are people who just want to have justification to be able to say tgat I won’t buy this camera, because you cant take unshaken pictures, even if they put so much trouble in developing this thing.

You and me, we all know what that is.

What caused what abd shake this shake that, you know. I don’t know. All I can say that images look good, and you may even pixel peep all you want.

Instead of that, I say. Try it. I’m still just admiring what I can do with this thing. With the lenses I do have already. Eye focus, fast responsive very nice image quality. Very good SR and amazing shutter. Shutter shake my ass(pardon me). That’s all.

The only problem is that you are saying there is no problem by ignoring the circumstances where shutter shock can manifest as a problem, and then offering as proof images that were not taken under those conditions.
Bless your heart.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2021 at 03:41 PM ----------

The bean bag mounted performance is of interest to very few people. Even hippies rarely lug around bean bags to stabilize their shots. Where do you draw the line? Build a sophisticated gimbal system capable of preempting shutter shock? Suspend it in gel with the prefectly tuned properties? Train for years until you can counter jerk the camera the same amount as the shutter shock?

It doesn't make sense to go beyond the normal gear and the settings available in camera. It would be a disservice to users to take extraordinary and specific measures depending on the camera.

I do hope it's a sample or combination of gear issue. I'm suspicious of the camera as I found most of the dpreview sample shots pretty poor.

It seems to be a given that DPReview is going to do their level best to find whatever weaknesses they can in Pentax gear and then exploit them to the best of their ability.
Sometimes, as with the supposed green fringing of the D FA* 50/1.4 "issue", they seem quite happy to outright lie to invent an issue.

With the Pentax APS-C cameras that I have used, avoiding 1/15 to 1/125 of a second while shooting on a light tripod seems to be the necessary measure to avoid what I have found to be a very real manifestation.
Considering that I rarely shoot anything in that speed range, it isn't a big deal, and now it's even less of a deal since I have moved on from APS-C, and the K1 with the tripod I am now using doesn't seem to have any problems with shutter shake or mirror slap.

In the case of the K3III and shutter shock, they may not be being completely dishonest, but if the camera behaves anything like how the K3 behaves, they are not being fully honest, and they are giving a lot of circumstantial evidence that they have a garbage test bench procedure.

[mlt]

The only problem is that you are saying there is no problem by ignoring the circumstances where shutter shock can manifest as a problem, and then offering as proof images that were not taken under those conditions.
Bless your heart.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2021 at 03:41 PM ----------



It seems to be a given that DPReview is going to do their level best to find whatever weaknesses they can in Pentax gear and then exploit them to the best of their ability.
Sometimes, as with the supposed green fringing of the D FA* 50/1.4 "issue", they seem quite happy to outright lie to invent an issue.

With the Pentax APS-C cameras that I have used, avoiding 1/15 to 1/125 of a second while shooting on a light tripod seems to be the necessary measure to avoid what I have found to be a very real manifestation.
Considering that I rarely shoot anything in that speed range, it isn't a big deal, and now it's even less of a deal since I have moved on from APS-C, and the K1 with the tripod I am now using doesn't seem to have any problems with shutter shake or mirror slap.

In the case of the K3III and shutter shock, they may not be being completely dishonest, but if the camera behaves anything like how the K3 behaves, they are not being fully honest, and they are giving a lot of circumstantial evidence that they have a garbage test bench procedure.

If nothing else, they should identify the tripod brand so it can be avoided by K3iii users

[madbrain]

Tripod usually improves shutter shock a bit? That's why, combined with the level of blur, it seems so serious.

Edit: do you think its possible that dpreview TV, sponsored ad and Seattle test shots all use the same camera? Not impossible but is it likely or unlikely?

Yes, Chris and Jordan at DP review mentioned they only had their camera for a short time before they had to send it to the Seattle team for the studio scenes testing. It is the same camera body.

---------- Post added 05-31-21 at 06:53 PM ----------

Unfortunate that they didn't really check them before posting, do they manually focus or use live view I wonder

The DNGs I downloaded from DPR indicated manual focus.

Honestly, I wouldn't put it past them to have messed up focus for those shots. This is DPR we are talking about.