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04-04-2021, 06:10 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
I don't like those assumptions either, and yes, they irritate me and no, I'm not being an apologist for DPR, but I do think it's better to assume good faith and react when that trust is undeniably broken than to assume bad faith and act accordingly.

And yes, ClassA is polite and sticks to facts - I don't actually think that any of the people I recognise from PF are exacerbating the problems there with their comments - my intention is just a general comment that for better or worse many people judge a brand by its users and we can help the brand(s) we like by remembering that.
Perhaps not, but the comments include detailed breakdowns of every perceived slight and inaccuracy and omission in a brief, high-level, 10-slide preview of the camera. And at least one post explaining in multiple sub-bullets how the yet-to-be-written full review will be biased and unfair.

If you're a reviewer you have to accept that some significant percentage of readers will viscerally dislike what you've written, no matter what that is. Maybe that's not just Pentax users, but people in general.

04-04-2021, 10:30 AM - 4 Likes   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Fairly or not, our defensiveness and over-aggressive calling out of reviewers has become one of the things people hold against Pentax, and that's in our control.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I do think it is hard when reviewers go into a review assuming (1) The time of SLRs is past and (2) The particular brand you shoot is likely to meet its demise soon. Even if they grudgingly admit that the camera is nice or a lens is nice, they are bound to stick in a little bit about how much nicer the mirrorless landscape is.
QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
This preview stuff is where Pentax does well, ergonomics etc.
QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
I do think it's better to assume good faith and react when that trust is undeniably broken than to assume bad faith and act accordingly.
QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Perhaps not, but the comments include detailed breakdowns of every perceived slight and inaccuracy and omission in a brief, high-level, 10-slide preview of the camera.
I've appreciated the many perspectives of this thread.


DPReview has a large readership and broad coverage, which is good for any new gear. I noticed that the "Most Popular Cameras" sidebar on the main page shows the K-3 Mark III reaching the top of the list at 8.7%, which is uncharacteristically high for Pentax, and notable for any brand. Certainly, the readership is intrigued by the new camera.

I found their Initial Review of the K-3 Mark III to be generally objective, and somewhat positive if not neutral. The piece presents an interesting overview of the salient elements; the comparison table seems reasonable.

Yet, there are several nuanced statements that project an undercutting viewpoint in my opinion. Is it worth mentioning?

For example: (my emphasis)

"The K-3 III iterates on the ergonomics of the exiting K-3 models, which we've frequently praised. We're pleased to be able to say that the K-3 III doesn't diverge too much from this pattern: the magnesium alloy construction maintains the impressively dense and solid feeling that its predecessors conveyed."

It's an odd choice of words. Compare their statement to one that could have easily omitted "too much," or this alternate one: We're pleased to say that the K-3 Mark III carries the hallmark Pentax ergonomics, build quality, and usability. Quite a different tone, I'd say.

"Perhaps the only question that matters for the K-3 Mark III is: does it offer enough of an improvement to prompt existing Pentax owners to upgrade?"

So, does DPReview think that the K-3 III is destined only for existing Pentax owners? Others need not bother? Or, are they implying that the majority of buyers would be existing Pentax users, which is probably a reasonable prediction? An extra sentence could have clarified their perspective, although I think it's a strange rhetorical subject to conclude a 'preview' type article.

(I hesitated to post these comments, fearing they might be seen as petty or undeserving. Well, a large public website such as DPReview should be capable of editing their work carefully, and to publish consistently objective material, unless a topic is clearly intended as an opinion piece. Then again, they want to attract readers.)

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 04-05-2021 at 08:14 AM.
04-04-2021, 10:49 AM - 3 Likes   #33
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I suspect that if one took recent DP reviews of 5 cameras, say P, N, C, S and F, and gave them to a linguist/behaviorist (whatever) they would detect a clear negative tone towards Pentax. Better yet, give them 5 samples DP reviews of each of the 5 brands. I would still expect the same. No matter, many, and hopefully more and more, will see Pentax as "Just Real Camera."
04-04-2021, 11:21 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
"The K-3 III iterates on the ergonomics of the exiting K-3 models, which we've frequently praised. We're pleased to be able to say that the K-3 III doesn't diverge too much from this pattern: the magnesium alloy construction maintains the impressively dense and solid feeling that its predecessors conveyed."

It's an odd choice of words. Compare their statement to one that could have easily omitted "too much," or this alternate one: We're pleased to say that the K-3 Mark III carries the hallmark Pentax ergonomics, build quality, and usability. Quite a different tone, I'd say
The K-3 III does, in fact, diverge from the K-3 wrt ergonomics. So it seems to me that DPR's statement is warranted.

It also doesn't feel negative at all to me. The next two sentences are:

And, of course, it offers the extensive weather-sealing Pentax cameras have become known for.
The handgrip and dial position will be immediately familiar to Pentax shooters: it's a camera that feels immediately comfortable in the hand.

(emphasis mine)

Sounds complimentary to me!

04-04-2021, 11:26 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
(I hesitated to post these comments, fearing they might be seen as petty or undeserving. Well, a large public website such as DPReview should be capable of editing their work carefully, and to provide consistently objective material, unless a topic is clearly an opinion piece. Then again, they want to attract readers.)
You know - I think they're just being journalists, and journalists look for an angle. I really think that we wouldn't even notice those comments if applied to any other brand, we'd just take them as so much filler.

PS - I don't necessarily include the science editor in above and previous comments

Last edited by ffking; 04-04-2021 at 12:18 PM.
04-04-2021, 11:34 AM - 2 Likes   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
The K-3 III does, in fact, diverge from the K-3 wrt ergonomics. So it seems to me that DPR's statement is warranted.
Fair point. Yes, one could interpret that the new camera 'diverges' from the specific ergonomics of the K-3/II -- for the better, probably. I get the impression from the Ricoh Imaging stories that they put a lot of effort towards tweaking and improving the handling, haptics, interface, controls, etc.

However, another interpretation could be that the new camera diverges from the pattern (i.e., the tendency or tradition) of praiseworthy ergonomics., which seems to be a different slant to me. Regardless, an alternative wording could have precluded any misinterpretation. Perhaps it's a niggly point, but I had problems understanding "doesn't diverge too much," especially because they didn't explain in what ways the new camera diverges.

I agree that the other sentences are definitely positive.

Maybe I'm one of those nit-pickers? (I blame my technical background.)

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 04-04-2021 at 03:29 PM.
04-04-2021, 01:27 PM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
It's an odd choice of words.
It's definitely an uninformative way of talking about the camera.

I think the potential negative undertone is too subtle to warrant challenging it, but I see no problem with asking a question about what he meant with "doesn't diverge too much". If there is anything worth saying then it should be said in a manner that helps the reader understand whether they like the change or not.

QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
So, does DPReview think that the K-3 III is destined only for existing Pentax owners?
Well, the simple answer is "yes".

In every recent Pentax camera review, they never failed to opine that there is not enough to attract users from other brands.

That's their prerogative, I guess, but it seems premature to already put this sentiment into a what is essentially a preview article only. They have not properly tested the features and IQ yet, however already somehow know that K-3 III is only of interest for existing Pentax owners. That does not seem to be living up to the highest standards of journalism.

This idea of "for Pentaxians only" is in the same category as the unwarranted assumption that the K-3 III might be the "last great DSLR". How do they know and why make such presumptions?


Last edited by Class A; 04-04-2021 at 01:38 PM.
04-04-2021, 01:36 PM - 2 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biff Quote
I suspect that if one took recent DP reviews of 5 cameras, say P, N, C, S and F, and gave them to a linguist/behaviorist (whatever) they would detect a clear negative tone towards Pentax.
This can definitely be observed in the way the weight and size of the K-1 II was referred to compared to the terms used for the Nikon D850:

D850K-1 II
"big, heavy camera" "as heavy" as a tank
"a bit heavy" "hulking mass of a camera"
"little unwieldy" "Camera is large and intimidating"
"not a petite camera" "Large and obtrusive..."

The K-1 II weighs 5g more (1010g vs 1005 g, both including battery).
In terms of size, if anything the D850 could be considered to have a larger profile.



It seems the extra 5g make all the difference!

BTW, the Panasonic S1R was described as "hefty" and "The payoff is a camera that feels a lot more like a pro camera body than any of its immediate peers."

P.S.: I don't know why cameradecision have the Nikon D850 at 1015g. I found 1005g elsewhere.

Last edited by Class A; 04-04-2021 at 06:14 PM.
04-04-2021, 01:54 PM - 3 Likes   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
P.S.: I don't know why cameradecision have the Nikon D850 at 1015g. I found 1005g elsewhere.
I'd think it's the extra letter on the pentaprism - letters are heavy, you know?
04-04-2021, 03:34 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
the unwarranted assumption that the K-3 III might be the "last great DSLR". How do they know and why make such presumptions?
"Maybe we've not yet seen the last great DSLR, after all."

Not how I read it
04-04-2021, 03:38 PM - 3 Likes   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
D850
"big, heavy camera"
"a bit heavy"
"little unwieldy"
"not a petite camera"

K-1 II
"as heavy" as a tank
"hulking mass of a camera"
"Camera is large and intimidating"
"Large and obtrusive..."
Sounds to me like the D850 was reviewed by an Englishman ... and the K-1 ,,, not
04-04-2021, 03:53 PM - 1 Like   #42
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Well Fstoppers says Pentax made a great camera nobody will want...no I didn't take the click bait...
04-04-2021, 03:55 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Not how I read it
Sorry, not sure what you mean?
04-04-2021, 04:05 PM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
"Maybe we've not yet seen the last great DSLR, after all."

Not how I read it
Yeah, it felt the same to me - as in "Pentax ARE still making great DSLRs, the Nikon D850 wasn't the last one".


IMO the review felt quite positive...
04-04-2021, 04:53 PM   #45
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As long as DPR allow dpthoughts trolling without issue then you have to assume that DPR are quite happy to encourage barbs against the brand both in reviews and in social content. The last First impression they did was with the HD PENTAX-D FA* 50/1.4, averaged a barb per paragraph, they have improved with the K-3 III. Their Dr of science or technology comes across as rabidly anti Pentax in any review, impression or opinion piece and will follow up with his favoured jargon and terminology in any forum or messaging interaction.
Call it for what it is, DPR is owned by Amazon, they are primarily there to push technology with high & fast turnover and take a slice off affiliation sales links. Ricoh / Pentax don't fit in that segment of the market but they are damned of they do and damned if they don't and any publicity can be useful.

---------- Post added 04-05-21 at 12:10 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Well Fstoppers says Pentax made a great camera nobody will want...no I didn't take the click bait...
I did and it was written by someone with very limited knowledge of the Pentax system. It came up in my Google feed yesterday I think, and I've forgotten the majority of it due to his ignorance; of the system, its optical capabilities and its unique placement in the marketplace. Might have been helpful for the mirrorless fanboi brigade to ease any hormonal issues as they loitered in the comments section though.

Last edited by robbiec; 04-04-2021 at 07:52 PM.
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