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06-03-2021, 09:23 PM - 1 Like   #136
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How predictable

Look at Mako go, what a great guy!

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06-03-2021, 11:08 PM - 1 Like   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
I don't think the slightly different shutter speed has a significant meaning for the displayed images or the discussion at hand, but I'm curious. It's also not clear to me the rationale for two different shots -- a single shot using 'RAW +' could have yielded a RAW file and a JPEG image at identical exposures.
With the JPEG image they are setting the exposure as to what the camera is metering so that the final image will appear at the correct lightness.
For the raw they are standardizing the exposure for the iso setting so that every camera will capture the same size of exposure for that given iso
06-03-2021, 11:56 PM - 2 Likes   #138
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All the nonsense speculation going on will stick in peoples heads. There was a previous issue where people spread crazy ideas about dpreview in one of these threads. It was proven that dpreview didn't do anything wrong in that instance. For a very long time people still posted the erroneus charge as proof of the heinous dpreview.

My away from keyboard communities and my other online ones don't suffer from this behaviour so for me it's kind of interesting to see this process unfold. It's the same process that is currently taking a significant toll on democracy across the globe. It's not enjoyable to watch but interesting nevertheless.

It seem like this stuff takes hold when to few people rein in the "free thinkers" and to many let the nonsense stand.
06-04-2021, 12:29 AM - 1 Like   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
All the nonsense speculation going on will stick in peoples heads. There was a previous issue where people spread crazy ideas about dpreview in one of these threads. It was proven that dpreview didn't do anything wrong in that instance. For a very long time people still posted the erroneus charge as proof of the heinous dpreview.

My away from keyboard communities and my other online ones don't suffer from this behaviour so for me it's kind of interesting to see this process unfold. It's the same process that is currently taking a significant toll on democracy across the globe. It's not enjoyable to watch but interesting nevertheless.

It seem like this stuff takes hold when to few people rein in the "free thinkers" and to many let the nonsense stand.
The comments by the mod Mako seem to be the main cause of confusion. When it was pointed out that others didn't see shutter shock at any shutter speed he said that using a sturdy tripod wasn't a valid way to test for shutter shock. Does this imply that they use a set up that will easily expose shutter shock? Elsewhere they claim to use rigid support.



06-04-2021, 01:09 AM - 2 Likes   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
The comments by the mod Mako seem to be the main cause of confusion. When it was pointed out that others didn't see shutter shock at any shutter speed he said that using a sturdy tripod wasn't a valid way to test for shutter shock. Does this imply that they use a set up that will easily expose shutter shock? Elsewhere they claim to use rigid support.
A mod is just a user, same as here? He has no affiliation with dpreview as far as i know. Why pay any attention to what he says when he's just a user speculating. His comments are quite strange and don't follow the threads very well. There's plenty of users like that on pf as well though. It just that not everyone thinks and writes very clearly.
06-04-2021, 04:04 AM   #141
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What's odd

QuoteOriginally posted by Madaboutpix Quote
You don't have to spend a lot of time in DPR's comment sections to sense dpthoughts for what he is: one of the most virulent anti-Pentax FUD superspreaders out there. I've found myself wondering more than once if he has turned his Pentax hating into a full-time job. If you think I'm being unfair in saying this, treat yourself to a quick scan of his comment history, but stop before you're losing your love of photography.
Is that people like that break comment and forum rules all the time and yet they are never banned.

Personally I think they have people on DPR who create controversy just so DPR can get hits. But if you dare question DPR in anyway, you get banned or moderated comment to comment just like me
06-04-2021, 04:11 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rush2112 Quote
Personally I think they have people on DPR who create controversy just so DPR can get hits.
Comments like this are very concerning. I hope you're doing ok but it just makes no sense. To garner hits they would target brands with more users or stoke conflict between users of the most popular brands.

06-04-2021, 05:00 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
Comments like this are very concerning. I hope you're doing ok but it just makes no sense. To garner hits they would target brands with more users or stoke conflict between users of the most popular brands.
Bullying is always done to the unpopular, incapable of fighting back guy.
It makes no sense to try the same to the popular brands, which will be properly defended (and whose number of posts don't need it anyway) - the backlash would be huge. But Pentax? It's easy to dismiss the few speaking in its favor as "rabid Pentax fans" or "paid employees".

But I don't think they actually do that. I think they're looking down on us, on Pentax, and lack integrity in general (that is, the moderating team - different people than the reviewers). And that they wouldn't bother, why, when trolls are doing it for free?

Last edited by Kunzite; 06-04-2021 at 05:07 AM.
06-04-2021, 05:26 AM - 2 Likes   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
DPR purposefully made the file inferior to the Camera RAW Defaults and not by a little.
You cannot state that they did anything "on purpose" with a certain agenda, unless you have information that no one else appears to have.

There is no Adobe Standard profile available for the K-3 III yet, so DPReview are trying to compensate for that, attempting to not introduce sharpening where none should occur.

Personally, I'm hopeful the "RAW" versions will look better once proper Adobe Standard profile will be available, but their current sharpening levels seem adequate for the higher ISO settings; it's just that the images that are apparently affected by shutter-shock look very bad for some reason. The out-of-camera JPEGs certainly don't look any better, on the contrary.

So, overall, I don't see how one can infer malice. However, in my view, DPReview should definitely have waited with the release of the K-3 III studio scene images until
  1. they received confirmation from Ricoh that the K-3 III suffers from shutter-shock in the respective shutter speed range or, alternatively, received a different copy of the K-3 III that does not exhibit this problem to the same extent.
  2. an Adobe standard profile is available. Using ACR is a bad idea to begin with (as ACR does under-the-hood processing, depending on the camera model, and not everyone uses ACR), but at the very least every camera should be given the same level of support. Adobe probably won't spend much effort on a K-3 III profile but it will hopefully produce better results.
I think even just a quick "heads up" report about the issue they are encountering would have been unwarranted at this stage but going all out with entering the current results into the image comparison tool may turn out to be a premature move.
06-04-2021, 05:33 AM - 2 Likes   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
I don’t think the image samples on DPreview are going to really sway anyone’s decision.
I don't know about that.

When I knew nothing about DSLRs and was deciding between the K100D and the Nikon D40, the comparison at DPReview (was very different back then, some worse, some better) was one of the reasons that swayed me towards the K100D. I liked the unprocessed look more than the smoother results from other cameras.

I believe a small number of buyers might be turned off by what is currently on view in the DPReview comparison tool.

QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Honestly at this point in time ALL of the cameras out there have very similar RAW performance with each adding their special sauce to JPEG.
Yes, and some are adding their special sauce to the raw data as well (Panasonic, Canon, Ricoh, they all process the raw data at low ISO levels; and no, others are not doing it in the same manner).
06-04-2021, 05:53 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
They had a problem and reported it. If they hadn't reported it, it would be more worrying.
I agree, in principle.

However, it is not justifiable to report a problem with a particular copy of equipment unless one has verified that the problem occurs with all copies.

If one believes in "any news coverage is positive", no matter how bad the news are, then they have done the K-3 III a service, even if they have to update the images with better versions in the future. I don't support this view, though, and think they are causing damage to K-3 III sales without having full confirmation of whether or not that is justifiable.

QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
The only double standard I see is that they used work arounds for the d780 and not the k3iii.
I think it makes a difference how complicated the workaround is, but I agree that if they thought that it is adequate to deviate from their normal procedure for the D780 --
"It's worth noting we had to modify our studio scene shooting protocol due to shutter shock (more on that below), since our default method of shooting in Single drive mode led to unusable results."
-- they should have done the same for the K-3 III.

QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
In the past they talked about the viewfinder of the d500 with praise and gave the k3iii a back handed compliment.
I would have liked to see a much more enthusiastic reception to the K-3 III's viewfinder as well but in their defence, back in the D500's days there was no EVF competition that could achieve higher magnifications than the K-3 III. Personally, I think they should acknowledge that EVFs are just not an option for some photographers and thus celebrated the K-3 III's viewfinder for its target audience, but I don't think you can claim that they are using a double standards for the D500 vs the K-3 III OVF evaluation.

As a matter of fact, they are so convinced by mirrorless technology, I'm pretty sure they nowadays would not be impressed by the D500's viewfinder either. If you read their D780 review, you see how they are essentially communicating that the mirrorless competition is preferable. Their "science editor" even expressed the view that shutter-shock is avoided by mirroless cameras ("...no risk of shutter-induced shake..."), which is very puzzling as mirrorless cameras also use mechanical shutters per default.
06-04-2021, 06:08 AM - 1 Like   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
It's very difficult to set up tests like this to be accurate.
Well, one should not set up tests, if one cannot execute them accurately (to a reasonable degree).

However, I don't think they are making mistakes in executing the test (with the exception of using ACR and by sometimes using "Adobe Standard" profiles and sometimes self-made profiles because no "Adobe Standard" is available yet).

The main criticism is that they are
  1. reporting a problem without knowing whether the cause might just be a defective camera, and
  2. populating the comparison tool with images that may have to be replaced with better versions in the future (potentially without shutter-shock and potentially without the magenta artefacts and potentially with different sharpening levels).

QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
... perfect doesn't exist.
Yes, but living up to one's responsibilities exists and ensuring that every piece of equipment receives the same support exists and making the same allowances for equipment shortcomings also exists.

Last edited by Class A; 06-04-2021 at 07:13 AM.
06-04-2021, 06:12 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I agree, in principle.
If one believes in "any news coverage is positive", no matter how bad the news are, then they have done the K-3 III a service, even if they have to update the images with better versions in the future. I don't support this view, though, and think they are causing damage to K-3 III sales without having full confirmation of whether or not that is justifiable.
No one here is a camera brand or even works at one as far as I know. We are users and consumers and presumanbly interested in thorough detailed reviews that find and explain any fault or weakness in the gear. In addition of course they should help point out great features and qualities but the review hasn't got to that point yet.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I think it makes a difference how complicated the workaround is, but I agree that if they thought that it is adequate to deviate from their normal procedure for the D780 --
"It's worth noting we had to modify our studio scene shooting protocol due to shutter shock (more on that below), since our default method of shooting in Single drive mode led to unusable results."
-- they should have done the same for the K-3 III.
But to remedy the K-3III they would have to go way beyond any reasonable workflow. What use would the images have if they don't reflect normal usage. Electronic shutter is a small setting change designed in part to reduce shutter shock. Pretty simple and obvious.
06-04-2021, 06:15 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
hen you do that reset the file to Camera Raw Defaults with all the Pentax DNG files at DPR turning off the baked in Image Settings applied by DPR you find a whole lot of detail restored to the image.
Have you tried to apply the same "Camera Raw Defaults" defaults to the higher ISO raw images (ISO 1600 and upwards)?
Perhaps they would look oversharpened with these settings?
06-04-2021, 06:32 AM - 2 Likes   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
No one here is a camera brand or even works at one as far as I know.
Correct, but we are users and it is not in our interest to see our brand's reputation being damaged to the point where Ricoh calls it a day because the paltry sales are not justifying maintaining the Pentax operation anymore. If Ricoh deserves the criticism then that's fair enough, of course. However, if it turns out that the alarm bells were rung prematurely then I don't see how one would justify DPReview's approach.

I'd go further and say it is not even reputable to prematurely report a fault even if it turns out one was right. At present, the decision is just not justifiable and that does not change with future knowledge.

QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
We are users and consumers and presumanbly interested in thorough detailed reviews that find and explain any fault or weakness in the gear.
Yes, but we are only interested in faults and weaknesses that we'll actually experience. No one is interested in a report about a lens' shortcomings if they are based on a decentred copy, are they?

QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
But to remedy the K-3III they would have to go way beyond any reasonable workflow. What use would the images have if they don't reflect normal usage.
Using the electronic shutter mode on the D780 does not "reflect normal usage".

First, most users will simply not engage it, because they are unaware of the issue.
Many Nikon cameras (and I understand that includes the D780) don't even engage electronic shutter mode, if you just activate that option. You have to do further steps to really activate the electronic shutter. I believe you even need to use LiveView, which would be contrary to the normal use of a DSLR.

Second, you cannot always use electronic shutter mode due to its limitations.

I see the difference in workaround complexity, but I don't think you can argue that there is an easy way for D780 users to circumvent the problem. Currently the DPReview studio scene comparison tool implies that the D780 poses no practical problems whereas the K-3 III does. This is just not justifiable, in my view.

Last edited by Class A; 06-04-2021 at 06:58 AM.
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