K-3 III bug in 2s self timer mode - Source of fuzzyness

**alfa75ts** · 06-10-2021, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by c.a.m

Would you please identify the lens?

FA 50 1.7 (DA 35 2.4 seems the same but haven't checked on a big screen yet)

Originally posted by c.a.m

Tripod mounted, or hand held?

Tripod

Originally posted by c.a.m

For images 3 and 4, was SR on or off?

2 sec delay (SR disabled according to Menu)

**Larrymc** · 06-10-2021, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by snappyhoffy

So is this the simple solution for now... turn off the Horizontal Correction and if needed Post Process?

Absolutely the best solution, I've never ever used Auto Horizon Correction in my K-3 and I don't intend to start with the Mk III same thing for composition adjustments. The default is off and from what is being discussed, it should stay in the default off mode. With good processing software horizon alignment is easy.

**alfa75ts** · 06-10-2021, 11:01 PM - **3 Likes**

Ok, should have done this earlier.

DA 35mm 2.4 (doesn't really matter)

Left side of frame.

1st shot 2 sec timer, horizon correction OFF.

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2nd shot 2 sec timer, horizon correction ON.

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Ishpuini · 06-11-2021, 01:48 AM

I would argue that horizon correction on a tripod makes no sense anyway, given that the level can be carefully set. It's only useful when shooting hand held, and even then... I always make sure it's turned off anyway, because I often align with verticals on the side of the frame, in which case horizon correction actually threatens to mess up my composition...

I would be all for switching this off automatically in the typical tripod modes, regardless of this error.

If they can however, Ricoh should fix this through firmware of course, and not just implement this work around...

**Rondec** · 06-11-2021, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by c.a.m

Thanks for posting the link. I have been following that thread at DPReview. I think that it covers the issue well.

In summary, the issue appears when Horizon Correction is ON and the 2-second, 12-second, or IR Remote 3-second timer is used. The issue appears in either viewfinder mode or Live View.

I have reproduced the effect -- camera on tripod, Horizon Correction ON, 2-second timer, DA 20-40mm Limited at 35mm, f/5.6, 1/60 s. The effect is independent of the SR mode; SR can be ON or OFF. I have not tested it while hand-holding the camera, nor at other shutter speeds.

The centre of the image is sharp, while the corners are blurry. The blurriness increases progressively from the centre towards the corners.

- Craig

I thought that the SR was automatically turned off when the 2 second, 12 second, and IR remote timer were used. It doesn't really matter what the camera is set to.

(The blurriness sure doesn't look like a typical shutter shake to me).

kh1234567890 · 06-11-2021, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by alfa75ts

Ok, should have done this earlier.

Does turning on 'composition adjust' make any difference ?

**alfa75ts** · 06-11-2021, 03:13 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by kh1234567890

Does turning on 'composition adjust' make any difference ?

Just checked, turning on 'composition adjust' by itself seems to not cause any issue, turning on 'composition adjust' and 'horizon correction' gives the same result as 'shot 2' above.

Turning the 2 sec timer OFF and 'horizon correction' ON gives the same result as 'shot 1' above.

**c.a.m** · 06-11-2021, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I thought that the SR was automatically turned off when the 2 second, 12 second, and IR remote timer were used.

Yes, that's the normal default operation. The 'auto SR off' function can be defeated by a menu setting (Camera 7 page).

- Craig

**ThorSanchez** · 06-11-2021, 06:46 AM - **4 Likes**

I can confirm that if I set horizon correction to on, set the camera on a tripod with the 2 second timer, have the camera just slightly off level, and take a shot the image is definitely blurry with the most exaggerated effects on the edges.

I've only used the camera in a handful of other tripod situations but can confirm that without horizon correction on I've seen no such effect.

I now have a U5 preset named "Helios Sim". Need to try it out with my 44M to see just how swirly I can get.

Ishpuini · 06-11-2021, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

I now have a U5 preset named "Helios Sim". Need to try it out with my 44M to see just how swirly I can get.

Ah, it's a feature, not a bug.

but... why not...

**ThorSanchez** · 06-11-2021, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Ishpuini

Ah, it's a feature, not a bug.

but... why not...

The downside is that even the center isn't sharp since it looks like the sensor is rotating.

beholder3 · 06-12-2021, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Strange then that it doesn't happen when used on a tripod when not using 2s delay (all else equal)...

Things are being mixed up here.

1) only corner softness around horizon correction
That seems related to the timing of the horizon correction of the sensor.

If only the corners are soft this is about the sensor adjustment and definitely not vibration induced (definitely not "shutter shock").

2) general vibration induced softness when used on tripod
That is what I referred to mainly. This is the topic created by the interns at dptabloid.
Here the softness clearly is in the center of the image as well.
And this very likely is related to the resonance effects described if the lieklyhood of occurence is as low as it is when using the camera in a well dampenend scenario (e.g. handheld, proper dampened tripod).

Unregistered User · 06-12-2021, 04:59 AM

In 2016 I was standing on top of a mountain on the border between Norway and Sweden. My K-1 on tripod and 12s timer, HC on and SR off. I could not get a sharp shot. I wonder if this is the same issue?
I can´t for my life remember what the problem was and how I fixed it but it may have been the HC...

**Pål Jensen** · 06-12-2021, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

2) general vibration induced softness when used on tripod
That is what I referred to mainly. This is the topic created by the interns at dptabloid.
Here the softness clearly is in the center of the image as well.
And this very likely is related to the resonance effects described if the lieklyhood of occurence is as low as it is when using the camera in a well dampenend scenario (e.g. handheld, proper dampened tripod).

There's no shutter induced softness when used on a tripod. Not on my camera at least.
The center is also soft on these 2s self-timer shots (with leveling on) but it get progressively worse towards the edges.

Unregistered User · 06-12-2021, 10:57 AM - **1 Like**

Did some testing today with K-3 III and DFA24-70/2.8 and checked the sharpness using HC On, SR Off, 1/125 f/3.2 MUP and 12s timer. Gave same result as HC On, SR Off, 1/125 f/3.2 and 2s timer.

Unsharp images. More on the edges than in the center. I was shooting at ISO1600 so at ISO100 it will be even more visible.

Turning HC Off fixed the problem. Did the same test on my K-1 but no difference in sharpness at all.

Now we know the problem and can work arround it but hopefully it will be fixed in FW.

06-10-2021, 11:01 PM - 3 Likes	#33
alfa75ts Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,356	Ok, should have done this earlier. DA 35mm 2.4 (doesn't really matter) Left side of frame. 1st shot 2 sec timer, horizon correction OFF. 2nd shot 2 sec timer, horizon correction ON.

06-12-2021, 04:59 AM	#43
Unregistered User Guest	In 2016 I was standing on top of a mountain on the border between Norway and Sweden. My K-1 on tripod and 12s timer, HC on and SR off. I could not get a sharp shot. I wonder if this is the same issue? I can´t for my life remember what the problem was and how I fixed it but it may have been the HC... Last edited by Unregistered User; 06-12-2021 at 05:15 AM.

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06-10-2021, 06:32 PM	#31
alfa75ts Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,356	Originally posted by c.a.m Would you please identify the lens? FA 50 1.7 (DA 35 2.4 seems the same but haven't checked on a big screen yet) Originally posted by c.a.m Tripod mounted, or hand held? Tripod Originally posted by c.a.m For images 3 and 4, was SR on or off? 2 sec delay (SR disabled according to Menu)

06-10-2021, 07:05 PM	#32
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by snappyhoffy So is this the simple solution for now... turn off the Horizontal Correction and if needed Post Process? Absolutely the best solution, I've never ever used Auto Horizon Correction in my K-3 and I don't intend to start with the Mk III same thing for composition adjustments. The default is off and from what is being discussed, it should stay in the default off mode. With good processing software horizon alignment is easy.

06-11-2021, 01:48 AM	#34
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	I would argue that horizon correction on a tripod makes no sense anyway, given that the level can be carefully set. It's only useful when shooting hand held, and even then... I always make sure it's turned off anyway, because I often align with verticals on the side of the frame, in which case horizon correction actually threatens to mess up my composition... I would be all for switching this off automatically in the typical tripod modes, regardless of this error. If they can however, Ricoh should fix this through firmware of course, and not just implement this work around...

06-11-2021, 02:53 AM	#35
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by c.a.m Thanks for posting the link. I have been following that thread at DPReview. I think that it covers the issue well. In summary, the issue appears when Horizon Correction is ON and the 2-second, 12-second, or IR Remote 3-second timer is used. The issue appears in either viewfinder mode or Live View. I have reproduced the effect -- camera on tripod, Horizon Correction ON, 2-second timer, DA 20-40mm Limited at 35mm, f/5.6, 1/60 s. The effect is independent of the SR mode; SR can be ON or OFF. I have not tested it while hand-holding the camera, nor at other shutter speeds. The centre of the image is sharp, while the corners are blurry. The blurriness increases progressively from the centre towards the corners. - Craig I thought that the SR was automatically turned off when the 2 second, 12 second, and IR remote timer were used. It doesn't really matter what the camera is set to. (The blurriness sure doesn't look like a typical shutter shake to me).

06-11-2021, 03:05 AM	#36
kh1234567890 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Manchester, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,653	Originally posted by alfa75ts Ok, should have done this earlier. Does turning on 'composition adjust' make any difference ?

06-11-2021, 03:13 AM - 1 Like	#37
alfa75ts Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,356	Originally posted by kh1234567890 Does turning on 'composition adjust' make any difference ? Just checked, turning on 'composition adjust' by itself seems to not cause any issue, turning on 'composition adjust' and 'horizon correction' gives the same result as 'shot 2' above. Turning the 2 sec timer OFF and 'horizon correction' ON gives the same result as 'shot 1' above.

06-11-2021, 05:01 AM	#38
c.a.m Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Ottawa, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,189	Originally posted by Rondec I thought that the SR was automatically turned off when the 2 second, 12 second, and IR remote timer were used. Yes, that's the normal default operation. The 'auto SR off' function can be defeated by a menu setting (Camera 7 page). - Craig

06-11-2021, 06:46 AM - 4 Likes	#39
ThorSanchez Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,806	I can confirm that if I set horizon correction to on, set the camera on a tripod with the 2 second timer, have the camera just slightly off level, and take a shot the image is definitely blurry with the most exaggerated effects on the edges. I've only used the camera in a handful of other tripod situations but can confirm that without horizon correction on I've seen no such effect. I now have a U5 preset named "Helios Sim". Need to try it out with my 44M to see just how swirly I can get.

06-11-2021, 07:43 AM	#40
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Originally posted by ThorSanchez I now have a U5 preset named "Helios Sim". Need to try it out with my 44M to see just how swirly I can get. Ah, it's a feature, not a bug. but... why not...

06-12-2021, 03:04 AM	#42
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Strange then that it doesn't happen when used on a tripod when not using 2s delay (all else equal)... Things are being mixed up here. 1) only corner softness around horizon correction That seems related to the timing of the horizon correction of the sensor. If only the corners are soft this is about the sensor adjustment and definitely not vibration induced (definitely not "shutter shock"). 2) general vibration induced softness when used on tripod That is what I referred to mainly. This is the topic created by the interns at dptabloid. Here the softness clearly is in the center of the image as well. And this very likely is related to the resonance effects described if the lieklyhood of occurence is as low as it is when using the camera in a well dampenend scenario (e.g. handheld, proper dampened tripod).

06-12-2021, 09:52 AM	#44
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371 Original Poster	Originally posted by beholder3 2) general vibration induced softness when used on tripod That is what I referred to mainly. This is the topic created by the interns at dptabloid. Here the softness clearly is in the center of the image as well. And this very likely is related to the resonance effects described if the lieklyhood of occurence is as low as it is when using the camera in a well dampenend scenario (e.g. handheld, proper dampened tripod). There's no shutter induced softness when used on a tripod. Not on my camera at least. The center is also soft on these 2s self-timer shots (with leveling on) but it get progressively worse towards the edges.

06-12-2021, 10:57 AM - 1 Like	#45
Unregistered User Guest	Did some testing today with K-3 III and DFA24-70/2.8 and checked the sharpness using HC On, SR Off, 1/125 f/3.2 MUP and 12s timer. Gave same result as HC On, SR Off, 1/125 f/3.2 and 2s timer. Unsharp images. More on the edges than in the center. I was shooting at ISO1600 so at ISO100 it will be even more visible. Turning HC Off fixed the problem. Did the same test on my K-1 but no difference in sharpness at all. Now we know the problem and can work arround it but hopefully it will be fixed in FW.