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11-14-2021, 12:42 PM - 1 Like   #16
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Hello.
My Camara is now since more than two weeks in maintenance (not the best and fastest here in Germany).
Because - different to you, guys - I've the same problem with other lenses (35 2.0 (screwdrive) and the 55 1.4 (SDM)).
I explored and first faced the problem with the 16-50 PLM, too.

Honestly speaking : when it (the camera) comes back with the result, that everything is in specification limits... Than I really think about leaving the system.

I really was looking forward to use the outer focus points do get a little bit rid of the old recompose half pressed AF...
I've had so many Pentax cameras... And own so much lenses... Still being proud to use our brand... But when this is true, I am really at the end.

When this is not usable with the newest camera and the newest lens... What did I pay for? What are all the AF points for?

And again: I tried this with the most contrast things I can imagine : this QR code pattern in the middle of the focus sheet: black white, black white, black white... In every direction.

@Settesz : when you first wrote you are happy with correction in AF, because it solves the problem in this critical edges, without making problems in the center... I couldn't believe it...and now it seems, you see there IS a problem doing this in that manner.


Last edited by licht96; 11-14-2021 at 12:48 PM.
11-14-2021, 12:55 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by licht96 Quote
Hello.
My Camara is now since more than two weeks in maintenance (not the best and fastest here in Germany).
Because - different to you, guys - I've the same problem with other lenses (35 2.0 (screwdrive) and the 55 1.4 (SDM)).
I explored and first faced the problem with the 16-50 PLM, too.

Honestly speaking : when it (the camera) comes back with the result, that everything is in specification limits... Than I really think about leaving the system.

I really was looking forward to use the outer focus points do get a little bit rid of the old recompose half pressed AF...
I've had so many Pentax cameras... And own so much lenses... Still being proud to use our brand... But when this is true, I really at the end.

When this is not usable with the newest camera and the newest lens... What did I pay for? What are all the AF points for?

And again: I tried this with the most contrast things I can imagine : this QR code pattern in the middle of the focus sheet: black white, black white, black white... In every direction.

@Settesz : when you first wrote you are happy with correction in AF, because it solves the problem in this critical edges, without making problems in the center... I couldn't believe it...and now it seems, you see there IS a problem doing this in that manner.
I sympathise with your problem, and if it causes you to leave the brand, that's sad - but absolutely your right to do so, of course. I will, however, point out that the K-3III is still a relatively new camera (less than six months since release), and the DA*16-50/2.8 PLM is even newer. It's not uncommon for early adopters of brand new, complex products - regardless of brand - to experience a few issues (one of the reasons I no longer buy newly-released products). If several people experience this same or similar issue, there's a good chance it will be resolved in fairly short order by Ricoh Imaging, either through firmware update or servicing. Given the amount you have invested in the new camera and lens, I hope you can summon the patience to hold out for a little while, to see if your problem can be rectified. It would be a shame if you made a hasty decision to switch brands when the solution could be just around the corner...

Good luck and keep us updated
11-14-2021, 01:13 PM   #18
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There is, while it improves outer points it messes up the central ones. I don't really understand why its working this way.
I think its normal to feel angry about it, its new and expensive gear, it's really frustrating that it's not working.
That being said, mistakes do happen and quality control is frequently left upon consumer. I really hope theyll sort out problem with your gear.
And I do with mine.
Please keep us informed as it moves forward.



QuoteOriginally posted by licht96 Quote
Hello.
My Camara is now since more than two weeks in maintenance (not the best and fastest here in Germany).
Because - different to you, guys - I've the same problem with other lenses (35 2.0 (screwdrive) and the 55 1.4 (SDM)).
I explored and first faced the problem with the 16-50 PLM, too.

Honestly speaking : when it (the camera) comes back with the result, that everything is in specification limits... Than I really think about leaving the system.

I really was looking forward to use the outer focus points do get a little bit rid of the old recompose half pressed AF...
I've had so many Pentax cameras... And own so much lenses... Still being proud to use our brand... But when this is true, I am really at the end.

When this is not usable with the newest camera and the newest lens... What did I pay for? What are all the AF points for?

And again: I tried this with the most contrast things I can imagine : this QR code pattern in the middle of the focus sheet: black white, black white, black white... In every direction.

@Settesz : when you first wrote you are happy with correction in AF, because it solves the problem in this critical edges, without making problems in the center... I couldn't believe it...and now it seems, you see there IS a problem doing this in that manner.
11-14-2021, 01:15 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I sympathise with your problem, and if it causes you to leave the brand, that's sad - but absolutely your right to do so, of course. I will, however, point out that the K-3III is still a relatively new camera (less than six months since release), and the DA*16-50/2.8 PLM is even newer. It's not uncommon for early adopters of brand new, complex products - regardless of brand - to experience a few issues (one of the reasons I no longer buy newly-released products). If several people experience this same or similar issue, there's a good chance it will be resolved in fairly short order by Ricoh Imaging, either through firmware update or servicing. Given the amount you have invested in the new camera and lens, I hope you can summon the patience to hold out for a little while, to see if your problem can be rectified. It would be a shame if you made a hasty decision to switch brands when the solution could be just around the corner...

Good luck and keep us updated
I do not think it is ok to release a product and use the early adopters as beta-testers. That is just bad policy. These problems are not hard to find so they should have been fixed. I will not wait for a FW-fix since I have no idea if there will ever be one. Sitting with a 2000 USD lens that sucks at AF, is like having the K-5 in wolfram light where that camera really missed every shot. I will return the lens and use the DFA24-70 since I already have that. The IQ in the new lens is not that much better.

11-14-2021, 05:04 PM - 1 Like   #20
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Other brands and models exhibit similar problems

Users of DSLR models in other brands have reported problems with the outer focus points, typically when using specific lenses. Here's a small sample of user comments from DPReview forums.

It's not obvious whether there was a common cause for the problems or if user error was at play. However, numerous commenters suggested that the AF 'line sensors' at the outer points are less accurate than the 'cross sensors', which are located in the central AF fields.


- Craig


Dec 2013. 6D Output Points Worthless?: Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
I'm having a lot of trouble using the outer points on my Canon 6D. The center point seems to do very well.

Apr 2015. 24mm f/1.4: focus problem or as good as it gets?: Nikon SLR Lens Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
My [Nikkor] 24mm f/1.4G lens has trouble obtaining accurate focus using the phase detect AF system (through the viewfinder)... Using the center focus point the lens front-focuses but using the outer focus points the lens back-focuses. I've got no problem using AF fine tune for front- or back- focus issues, but there is no AF fine tune value that would work for both the center and side sensors in this situation.

May 2018. Nikon D7200 outer autofocus points not able to lock focus with Sigma Lenses. Pls help!: Nikon DX SLR (D40-D90, D3000-D7500) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
I recently got the [Nikon] D7200 and while using it with the Sigma S 150-600mm, 18-35mm, and 50-100mm I found that the AF points in the far edges will not Autofocus. The focus keeps going in and out and cannot lock AF.

Dec 2019. Sigma 85mm f1.4 Art outer focus points issue on D850: Third Party Lens Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
I am having issues with newly bought Sigma 85mm f/1.4 Art lens. The lens was heavily front focusing on the central focus point but even more on the outer points on my Nikon D850.

Feb 2020: Outer focus points Backfocus when using nikon?s d850+ 24-70 vr: Nikon FX SLR (DF, D1-D5, D600-D850) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
I have recently bought a new [Nikkor] 24-70 VR and noticed that d850 always backfocuses with it when using two left and right rows of focus points in AFS mode.

Jul 2020. Focus points and accuracy: Nikon FX SLR (DF, D1-D5, D600-D850) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
[Nikon] D750, Nikkor AF-S 85mm 1.8 G, Tamron Di 70-200 2.8. I find that if I focus - on the eye of the subject - with either lens fully open, but using the central focus point and then recomposing, the images come out mostly OK. However, if I use another focus point, let us say the far right one if I am taking a portrait oriented image, still focusing on an eye, the focus tends to be quite badly off.

Sep 2021. Which upgrade path?: Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
The [Canon] 6d is still serving me well, but one thing I would like is a more reliable focus system. I tend to use the outer focus points and whilst they do the job, some of them can be a bit unreliable at times.

Last edited by c.a.m; 11-14-2021 at 05:20 PM.
11-14-2021, 10:37 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
I do not think it is ok to release a product and use the early adopters as beta-testers. That is just bad policy.
I broadly agree with you. It is, though, commonplace nowadays for occasional issues to be discovered with brand new, complex products. It's not unique to any brand, nor to the camera and lens industry. As previously indicated, it's why I'm no longer an early-adopter.

However...

Before we conclude there is definitely a problem with either the DA*16-50 PLM and/or the K-3III, we need to ensure that those experiencing the problem are performing their tests correctly and in a controlled manner, using a suitable focusing target and tripod-mounted camera in good, natural lighting. We then need tests for the DA*16-50 PLM on both the K-3III and one or more previous camera models, and the same tests with a different lens on those exact same bodies, using single AF point focusing in AF-S mode for each available focusing point. Only then can we know for sure if there is a problem with either the DA*16-50 PLM, the K-3III, or specifically a combination of the two.

If we do conclude there is a problem, affected owners need to contact both their suppliers and Ricoh to inform them of the problem, rather than simply returning the products or accepting and putting up with issue. Ricoh can't address it if they don't know about it. Informing them is in the users' own interests as well as being a service to the whole community of potential future owners.

As a current owner of the K-3III and DA*16-50 PLM, would you be able to perform the tests in a controlled way as described above, post about them here in the forums (preferably with examples to demonstrate), and - if you're then certain the problem exists - inform Ricoh, before returning the lens? You would be helping your fellow forum members and the Pentax community as a whole by doing so.

I don't own the K-3III or DA*16-50 PLM, so I'm unable to assist directly - otherwise I'd happily perform the controlled testing myself for the benefit of all concerned...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-14-2021 at 11:06 PM.
11-15-2021, 03:20 AM   #22
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So i checked my 16-50 PLM and its focusing problem seems to be gone.
But as @op noticed I just had a problem with one lens, not the camera itself.

11-15-2021, 03:56 AM   #23
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@c.a.m: thank you for your links and information. This is quite interesting that other DSLRs have same problems with specific lenses.

@BigMackCam: you are totally right! Certain tests should be done. But honestly speaking: when there are really problems with some combination of lenses that are nor working with special AF points...huh...it would be hard to integrate in my work: knowing what point is 100% reliable or not. There is really an advantage of newer AF Systems (mostly on mirrorless)where "in focus" is "in focus". The green hexagon was something I really trust in
@Settesz: hm? self healing over night? I think I donīt understand you now really in now way: first with problems as me with outer AF points...than focus adjustment only for the outer AF points while not affecting the central focus...than: ok the adjustment IS (!) affecting the central as well....and now problems gone?

Last edited by licht96; 11-15-2021 at 03:58 AM. Reason: Spelling
11-15-2021, 04:21 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by licht96 Quote
you are totally right! Certain tests should be done. But honestly speaking: when there are really problems with some combination of lenses that are nor working with special AF points...huh...it would be hard to integrate in my work: knowing what point is 100% reliable or not. There is really an advantage of newer AF Systems (mostly on mirrorless)where "in focus" is "in focus". The green hexagon was something I really trust in
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting these tests are done so that users learn to accept where there are focusing inaccuracies. The reason for testing is to clearly and unequivocally determine whether there is a PDAF inaccuracy issue on certain focusing points with the K-3III and/or the DA*16-50 PLM. If there is, then this needs to be reported to Ricoh, because it's clearly either a firmware issue with camera and/or lens, or (less likely) a hardware problem. Either way, if it's conclusively determined, it needs to be addressed...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-15-2021 at 05:45 AM.
11-15-2021, 04:26 AM   #25
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@licht96: almost self healing.
I was asked yesterday in another thread if the lens was focusing in live view. I checked that, it did, and I've done some tests in different settings, all was fine. After using it in live view it started focusing correctly thru ovf.
I double checked it today and all is fine.
It puzzles me what could possibly change from switching to live view.


QuoteOriginally posted by licht96 Quote
@Settesz: hm? self healing over night? I think I donīt understand you now really in now way: first with problems as me with outer AF points...than focus adjustment only for the outer AF points while not affecting the central focus...than: ok the adjustment IS (!) affecting the central as well....and now problems gone?
11-15-2021, 05:37 AM   #26
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I have tested the DA*16-50PLM under good light outside and it is missing focus more than is acceptable. A shame =(

Talked to the service center and he said he had not heard of this problem but there are not many sold in the Nordic countries so... He looked in his database and found no mentioning of this. I will probably send it back.

Tested it against the K-1 DFA24-70 combo and the K-3 III DA*16-50PLM is sharper and more detailed. And the DFA24-70 on the K-3 III gives better results than on the K-1. I will probably use the 24-70 as a compromise for now. Visit the 16-50PLM later. I had to much beta testing done on the K-1 and itīs lenses when they sent all my gear to Japan to be tested there...

Well, at the end it does not matter if I do controlled tests or handheld, if it misses focus in an unpredictable way I will not trust the lens and if I do not trust it it is of no use to me.
11-15-2021, 05:39 AM   #27
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@Settesz:
"After using it in live view it started focusing correctly thru ovf" ???

I didn't got it....? After using Live View (totally different AF: contrast based) the lens/camera heals itself that everything is fine with phase detection through OVF?
11-15-2021, 06:35 AM   #28
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That is correct.
After using it in live view, checking focusing on the borders, the lens started to focus correctly thru ovf using all af points (the camera af was fine to begin with, checked it with other lenses to be sure the 16-50 is the problem).
Kinda crazy.


QuoteOriginally posted by licht96 Quote
@Settesz:
"After using it in live view it started focusing correctly thru ovf" ???

I didn't got it....? After using Live View (totally different AF: contrast based) the lens/camera heals itself that everything is fine with phase detection through OVF?
11-15-2021, 07:52 AM   #29
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Now I have sent it back. Going to spend the 2000 USD on something else for now and maybe revisit the lens on a later date. Think I will buy the much cheaper HD DA 20-40 Limited. Lets see on black friday...

Going into live view did not do anything to this issue, it still missed focus on the focus points that is not the center one. On rare occation it did accuire focus but very rarely, maybe 5% of the images got acceptabel focus?

Well, well...
11-15-2021, 07:56 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
it still missed focus on the focus points that is not the center one.
Interesting. Do I understand correctly that the focus was accurate only at the single center point, and not at any of the adjacent points?

Thanks.

- Craig
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