Have we ALL been using the K-3 Mark III wrong?

mtkeller · 03-08-2022, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Tjompen1968

I think that it refers to the selection of Custom Image and subject recognition for the exposure. I get the feeling that AF is outside those parameters since we have separate settings for using the AE-sensor to recognize subjects. But who knows...

Exactly this.

house · 03-08-2022, 10:03 AM

This has been discussed at length before. I think reepap had the lowdown. My understanding, not owning a K-3 III, was that Pentax for some reason required Scene Analyze Auto and Auto Select. Other users, with cameras in hand, vehemently denied this.

**Larrymc** · 03-08-2022, 11:07 AM - **1 Like**

Someone from Ricoh/Pentax needs to do some "splainin" about this before we all get totally confused.

**Larrymc** · 03-08-2022, 01:00 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by house

This has been discussed at length before. I think reepap had the lowdown. My understanding, not owning a K-3 III, was that Pentax for some reason required Scene Analyze Auto and Auto Select. Other users, with cameras in hand, vehemently denied this.

I think that is correct. I just did a quick and dirty test and the Auto Mode seemed to do a very good job of getting the settings correct in good light versus my normal settings. Lower light levels the shutter speed is reduced, I'm not sure if the minimum shutter speed settings can be controlled in Auto Mode. Now I have to rethink all of this?

Fogel70 · 03-08-2022, 01:14 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Larrymc

I think that is correct. I just did a quick and dirty test and the Auto Mode seemed to do a very good job of getting the settings correct in good light versus my normal settings. Lower light levels the shutter speed is reduced, I'm not sure if the minimum shutter speed settings can be controlled in Auto Mode. Now I have to rethink all of this?

What is your normal settings? Several settings may affect this.
If normally using CW metering it can make a major difference just switching to multi-segment metering.

**Larrymc** · 03-08-2022, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Fogel70

What is your normal settings? Several settings may affect this.
If normally using CW metering it can make a major difference just switching to multi-segment metering.

I rarely use CW metering it is usually multi-segment metering for normal situations. One of the differences I see is that Auto Mode automatically defaults to Auto White Balance where as I almost always use Multi Auto White Balance setting.

Paul the Sunman · 03-08-2022, 02:33 PM

Also, Auto Mode enforces "Auto Select" in Custom Image.

**Larrymc** · 03-08-2022, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Paul the Sunman

Also, Auto Mode enforces "Auto Select" in Custom Image.

Yep, I shoot in Flat Custom image mode to more closely simulate what a DNG would look like out of camera.

The Squirrel Mafia · 03-08-2022, 03:25 PM - **1 Like**

This is quite interesting. I'm reading that there are only 2 ways to get subject detection.

Set the camera dial to AUTO. (This is something that I really don't want to do.)

-OR-

Set the Custom Image mode (Bright, Natural, Landscape, Portrait, Vibrant, blah, blah, blah) to Auto Select in any setting outside of AUTO.

Basically, the camera will use Deep Learning in any mode outside of AUTO (TAv, P, Sv, blah, blah, blah) as long as you set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select.

Is that correct?

**rogerstg** · 03-08-2022, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Kobie

**** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select.

I think that some of us have missed the "or" and assumed "and." It wouldn't make sense for a camera at this level to require full auto to best identify and track subjects, hence two ways to enable the function.

Originally posted by Kobie

I'm playing around with it right now, so far having the custom image set to auto select seems to be working best. Scene Analyze Auto exposure mode seems to be hit and miss in comparison. AF.C in Zone auto AF with custom image set to auto seems to be the most accurate for eye detect. I'm still testing though.

Thank you for doing this and reporting back. I wonder if some of the YouTube testing results would have been different if Custom Image were set to Auto Select.

MikeStnly · 03-08-2022, 03:52 PM

In the K-3iii brochure it says "Thanks to the combination of the high-resolution RGBlr AE sensor with 307,000 pixels and the latest Deep Learning technology, the PRIME V imaging engine features a new image recognition algorithm that GREATLY IMPROVES THE CAMERAS AUTOFOCUSING PERFORMANCE, and assures more stable performance of the auto-exposure and auto-white balance systems."

So the Real-time Scene Analysis would seem to have some impact on the AF. I would think particularly with Eye detection and Tracking.

mtkeller · 03-08-2022, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by The Squirrel Mafia

This is quite interesting. I'm reading that there are only 2 ways to get subject detection.

Set the camera dial to AUTO. (This is something that I really don't want to do.)

-OR-

Set the Custom Image mode (Bright, Natural, Landscape, Portrait, Vibrant, blah, blah, blah) to Auto Select in any setting outside of AUTO.

Basically, the camera will use Deep Learning in any mode outside of AUTO (TAv, P, Sv, blah, blah, blah) as long as you set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select.

Is that correct?

I think that this is still overstated. You'll get the deep learning for AF as long as you have the right AF settings (in terms of which AF points are active), even with a custom image set. You will get additional aspects of deep learning that will choose from amongst the available custom images when you have auto select turned on.

**Larrymc** · 03-08-2022, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by The Squirrel Mafia

This is quite interesting. I'm reading that there are only 2 ways to get subject detection.

Set the camera dial to AUTO. (This is something that I really don't want to do.)

-OR-

Set the Custom Image mode (Bright, Natural, Landscape, Portrait, Vibrant, blah, blah, blah) to Auto Select in any setting outside of AUTO.

Basically, the camera will use Deep Learning in any mode outside of AUTO (TAv, P, Sv, blah, blah, blah) as long as you set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select.

Is that correct?

Not Correct, When in Auto Mode, Real Time Scene Analysis is activated along with custom image auto mode not vice versa. I really don't believe selecting custom image has any effect on Real Time Scene Analysis in any other mode selection. Custom Image settings only affect JPG output.

Paul the Sunman · 03-08-2022, 07:21 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Larrymc

Not Correct, When in Auto Mode, Real Time Scene Analysis is activated along with custom image auto mode not vice versa. I really don't believe selecting custom image has any effect on Real Time Scene Analysis in any other mode selection. Custom Image settings only affect JPG output.

That's not what Pentax says:

... the PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System instantly detects the subject's face and eyes using the advanced image recognition technology, then makes real-time analysis of their movement. This assists the camera in optimizing exposure settings and improving autofocusing accuracy. By adopting Deep Learning**** -- the latest, much-publicized artificial intelligence technology -- the PENTAX K-3 Mark III assures more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment.

**** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select.

house · 03-09-2022, 01:46 AM

Who sets up a lab grade experiment

This will be really hard to determine without clear answers from Pentax. As mentioned though people have been really convinced that you don't need the Auto Select setting. It would indeed be very odd if Pentax did require "full auto" to benefit from deep learning af.

Thing is though that previous Pentax models required Portrait custom image to enable face detect in live view. So in that respect what we read from the manual would be consistent with Pentax thinking.

03-08-2022, 03:25 PM - 1 Like	#24
The Squirrel Mafia Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 3,054	This is quite interesting. I'm reading that there are only 2 ways to get subject detection. Set the camera dial to AUTO. (This is something that I really don't want to do.) -OR- Set the Custom Image mode (Bright, Natural, Landscape, Portrait, Vibrant, blah, blah, blah) to Auto Select in any setting outside of AUTO. Basically, the camera will use Deep Learning in any mode outside of AUTO (TAv, P, Sv, blah, blah, blah) as long as you set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select. Is that correct?

03-08-2022, 04:36 PM	#27
mtkeller Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Sioux City, IA Photos: Gallery Posts: 938	Originally posted by The Squirrel Mafia This is quite interesting. I'm reading that there are only 2 ways to get subject detection. Set the camera dial to AUTO. (This is something that I really don't want to do.) -OR- Set the Custom Image mode (Bright, Natural, Landscape, Portrait, Vibrant, blah, blah, blah) to Auto Select in any setting outside of AUTO. Basically, the camera will use Deep Learning in any mode outside of AUTO (TAv, P, Sv, blah, blah, blah) as long as you set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select. Is that correct? I think that this is still overstated. You'll get the deep learning for AF as long as you have the right AF settings (in terms of which AF points are active), even with a custom image set. You will get additional aspects of deep learning that will choose from amongst the available custom images when you have auto select turned on.

03-08-2022, 04:52 PM	#28
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by The Squirrel Mafia This is quite interesting. I'm reading that there are only 2 ways to get subject detection. Set the camera dial to AUTO. (This is something that I really don't want to do.) -OR- Set the Custom Image mode (Bright, Natural, Landscape, Portrait, Vibrant, blah, blah, blah) to Auto Select in any setting outside of AUTO. Basically, the camera will use Deep Learning in any mode outside of AUTO (TAv, P, Sv, blah, blah, blah) as long as you set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select. Is that correct? Not Correct, When in Auto Mode, Real Time Scene Analysis is activated along with custom image auto mode not vice versa. I really don't believe selecting custom image has any effect on Real Time Scene Analysis in any other mode selection. Custom Image settings only affect JPG output. Last edited by Larrymc; 03-08-2022 at 06:58 PM.

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03-08-2022, 08:56 AM	#16
mtkeller Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Sioux City, IA Photos: Gallery Posts: 938	Originally posted by Tjompen1968 I think that it refers to the selection of Custom Image and subject recognition for the exposure. I get the feeling that AF is outside those parameters since we have separate settings for using the AE-sensor to recognize subjects. But who knows... Exactly this.

03-08-2022, 10:03 AM	#17
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	This has been discussed at length before. I think reepap had the lowdown. My understanding, not owning a K-3 III, was that Pentax for some reason required Scene Analyze Auto and Auto Select. Other users, with cameras in hand, vehemently denied this.

03-08-2022, 11:07 AM - 1 Like	#18
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Someone from Ricoh/Pentax needs to do some "splainin" about this before we all get totally confused.

03-08-2022, 01:00 PM - 1 Like	#19
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by house This has been discussed at length before. I think reepap had the lowdown. My understanding, not owning a K-3 III, was that Pentax for some reason required Scene Analyze Auto and Auto Select. Other users, with cameras in hand, vehemently denied this. I think that is correct. I just did a quick and dirty test and the Auto Mode seemed to do a very good job of getting the settings correct in good light versus my normal settings. Lower light levels the shutter speed is reduced, I'm not sure if the minimum shutter speed settings can be controlled in Auto Mode. Now I have to rethink all of this?

03-08-2022, 01:14 PM - 1 Like	#20
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by Larrymc I think that is correct. I just did a quick and dirty test and the Auto Mode seemed to do a very good job of getting the settings correct in good light versus my normal settings. Lower light levels the shutter speed is reduced, I'm not sure if the minimum shutter speed settings can be controlled in Auto Mode. Now I have to rethink all of this? What is your normal settings? Several settings may affect this. If normally using CW metering it can make a major difference just switching to multi-segment metering.

03-08-2022, 02:28 PM	#21
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by Fogel70 What is your normal settings? Several settings may affect this. If normally using CW metering it can make a major difference just switching to multi-segment metering. I rarely use CW metering it is usually multi-segment metering for normal situations. One of the differences I see is that Auto Mode automatically defaults to Auto White Balance where as I almost always use Multi Auto White Balance setting.

03-08-2022, 02:33 PM	#22
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,843	Also, Auto Mode enforces "Auto Select" in Custom Image.

03-08-2022, 03:20 PM	#23
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by Paul the Sunman Also, Auto Mode enforces "Auto Select" in Custom Image. Yep, I shoot in Flat Custom image mode to more closely simulate what a DNG would look like out of camera.

03-08-2022, 03:36 PM	#25
rogerstg Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 1,168	Originally posted by Kobie **** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select. I think that some of us have missed the "or" and assumed "and." It wouldn't make sense for a camera at this level to require full auto to best identify and track subjects, hence two ways to enable the function. Originally posted by Kobie I'm playing around with it right now, so far having the custom image set to auto select seems to be working best. Scene Analyze Auto exposure mode seems to be hit and miss in comparison. AF.C in Zone auto AF with custom image set to auto seems to be the most accurate for eye detect. I'm still testing though. Thank you for doing this and reporting back. I wonder if some of the YouTube testing results would have been different if Custom Image were set to Auto Select.

03-08-2022, 03:52 PM	#26
MikeStnly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Algonquin Highlands Posts: 249	In the K-3iii brochure it says "Thanks to the combination of the high-resolution RGBlr AE sensor with 307,000 pixels and the latest Deep Learning technology, the PRIME V imaging engine features a new image recognition algorithm that GREATLY IMPROVES THE CAMERAS AUTOFOCUSING PERFORMANCE, and assures more stable performance of the auto-exposure and auto-white balance systems." So the Real-time Scene Analysis would seem to have some impact on the AF. I would think particularly with Eye detection and Tracking.

03-08-2022, 07:21 PM - 1 Like	#29
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,843	Originally posted by Larrymc Not Correct, When in Auto Mode, Real Time Scene Analysis is activated along with custom image auto mode not vice versa. I really don't believe selecting custom image has any effect on Real Time Scene Analysis in any other mode selection. Custom Image settings only affect JPG output. That's not what Pentax says: ... the PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System instantly detects the subject's face and eyes using the advanced image recognition technology, then makes real-time analysis of their movement. This assists the camera in optimizing exposure settings and improving autofocusing accuracy. By adopting Deep Learning** -- the latest, much-publicized artificial intelligence technology -- the PENTAX K-3 Mark III assures more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment. ** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select.

03-09-2022, 01:46 AM	#30
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Who sets up a lab grade experiment This will be really hard to determine without clear answers from Pentax. As mentioned though people have been really convinced that you don't need the Auto Select setting. It would indeed be very odd if Pentax did require "full auto" to benefit from deep learning af. Thing is though that previous Pentax models required Portrait custom image to enable face detect in live view. So in that respect what we read from the manual would be consistent with Pentax thinking.