Have we ALL been using the K-3 Mark III wrong?

**rogerstg** · 03-09-2022, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by house

Who sets up a lab grade experiment

Interesting concept, but, rhetorically, how does one test AI "learning"? How much teaching is needed before the camera learns enough to produce a noticeable improvement? Maybe "deep learning" is more marketing than literal.

It would be great if someone knowledgeable about the technology and various focus tracking scenarios could explain how the functions interact for best results.

house · 03-09-2022, 07:38 AM

My post was tongue in cheek, but really, if users can't detect a difference between the settings they don't exist for practical purposes.

Fogel70 · 03-09-2022, 08:01 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by rogerstg

Interesting concept, but, rhetorically, how does one test AI "learning"? How much teaching is needed before the camera learns enough to produce a noticeable improvement? Maybe "deep learning" is more marketing than literal.

It would be great if someone knowledgeable about the technology and various focus tracking scenarios could explain how the functions interact for best results.

I do not think the camera have any learning abilities. The learning is done in the Ricoh lab before the firmware is created.
Then it is only Ricoh that can improve the algorithms by using large amount of data in fine tuning of the deep learning algorithms.

So the algorithms may have improved on updated frmware versions.

**Larrymc** · 03-09-2022, 10:16 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Paul the Sunman

That's not what Pentax says:

... the PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System instantly detects the subject's face and eyes using the advanced image recognition technology, then makes real-time analysis of their movement. This assists the camera in optimizing exposure settings and improving autofocusing accuracy. By adopting Deep Learning**** -- the latest, much-publicized artificial intelligence technology -- the PENTAX K-3 Mark III assures more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment.

**** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select.

I stand corrected, it does indeed say that. I have always been under the impression that custom image settings only affected JPG output and indeed they do only affect JPG output. I set up my Mk III on one of my tripods and shot a series of nine shots three each using Auto Mode, TAV Custom image Auto and TAV Custom image Flat, defocusing and refocusing after each shot. I took a look at the RAW output in Fast Raw Viewer and also DXO PhotoLab 5 with the standard correction disabled. There is no difference in the DNG files in any of the shots all the histograms are essentially the same, the camera did, however, recognize the scene and apply what I though was the appropriate scene settings for both the Auto Mode and the TAV custom image auto. Additionally Auto Mode seems to scatter the in focus point all around the target where as TAV with custom image auto puts the focus right where it was intended.

My main concern was if the RAW output was affected at all by Auto Mode or Custom Image Auto. So I think I am still confused but I will do some more testing on different subject and hopefully my confusion will subside.

The Squirrel Mafia · 03-09-2022, 11:44 AM

^ Interesting! So setting the Custom Image mode to Auto Select plus setting the Active AF Area to Auto Area or Zone Select will turn on subject recognition in any other setting outside of AUTO?

Fogel70 · 03-09-2022, 01:04 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Larrymc

I stand corrected, it does indeed say that. I have always been under the impression that custom image settings only affected JPG output and indeed they do only affect JPG output. I set up my Mk III on one of my tripods and shot a series of nine shots three each using Auto Mode, TAV Custom image Auto and TAV Custom image Flat, defocusing and refocusing after each shot. I took a look at the RAW output in Fast Raw Viewer and also DXO PhotoLab 5 with the standard correction disabled. There is no difference in the DNG files in any of the shots all the histograms are essentially the same, the camera did, however, recognize the scene and apply what I though was the appropriate scene settings for both the Auto Mode and the TAV custom image auto. Additionally Auto Mode seems to scatter the in focus point all around the target where as TAV with custom image auto puts the focus right where it was intended.

My main concern was if the RAW output was affected at all by Auto Mode or Custom Image Auto. So I think I am still confused but I will do some more testing on different subject and hopefully my confusion will subside.

Although the custom image is not used for RAW images it may have to be activated for the "Real-time Scene Analysis System" to be active. There are many different functions interconnected in the RTSA pipelline, so if disabling some of them the whole pipeline may get deactivated.
It probably just a design choice, but it may also be that the processing can be quicker if designed like this.

**rogerstg** · 03-09-2022, 02:56 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by The Squirrel Mafia

^ Interesting! So setting the Custom Image mode to Auto Select plus setting the Active AF Area to Auto Area or Zone Select will turn on subject recognition in any other setting outside of AUTO?

If I read it correctly, it will turn on "Deep Learning . . . [for] more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment."
You'll probably still need to turn on "Subject Recognition."

The Squirrel Mafia · 03-09-2022, 04:02 PM

^ I see.

K-3 Mark III Owner's Manual

From Page 62 in the manual:

Subject recognition.

You can make settings so that the recognized subject is prioritized while autofocusing when [AF Active Area] is set to [Auto Area] or [Zone Select].

Page 63 has a table for the Active Area AF & tells you what each type of autofocus does.

So my guess is that basic subject recognition alone is handled by those autofocus settings in any mode outside of AUTO. We already know that subject recognition is available in AUTO.

6. PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System, supported by the latest artificial intelligence technology

^ Here's is where the confusion seems to come in. According to what I gathered from the vague Section 6, there's an additional "Deep Learning Technology" that seems to work on top of the subject recognition once you turn the dial to AUTO or set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select in any mode outside of AUTO. The funny thing is that the owner's manual doesn't mention anything about "Deep Learning Technology". The downside is that you're very limited when shooting in AUTO or you're stuck with whatever image tone the camera decides to give you when using Auto Select. You might get Natural, Bright, Landscape, Portrait, or whatever the camera thinks is appropriate for that scene. That kind of sucks for jpeg shooters that rely on the OOC jpegs, but RAW shooters can keep using their own RAW converter settings & get whatever color they want.

Good old vague Pentax. Hahaha!

Paul the Sunman · 03-09-2022, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Michaelina2

Here's a 'quick 'n dirty' of a normal wildlike encounter in a complex scene......

So I guess consistency isn't a priority.

**clackers** · 03-09-2022, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by house

Thing is though that previous Pentax models required Portrait custom image to enable face detect in live view.

Clearly not true! I never use Portrait custom image but often use face detect in Live View.

**Larrymc** · 03-09-2022, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Michaelina2

Here's a 'quick 'n dirty' of a normal wildlike encounter in a complex scene......

K-3 MkIII+DA 70-210/4, handheld, native lighting, close crop, LR CC+NIK...

Camera/lens image capture position/settings and post-processing the same.
Environmental settings vary naturally, wind, lighting, etc.
Time interval (say) 2 minutes during sunset.

Custom Image Mode = Auto Select
Active Area = Zone Select

Custom Image Mode = Auto Select
Active Area = Auto Area

Not perfect, but... you get the idea.

Cheers and enjoy the season... M

Nice images for the time of day. Are these images processed from RAW files or are these OOC JPG images? I take it that they are processed from DNG or RAW files but I'm just confirming everything. Is it your opinion that using custom image auto select mode gives you more accurate focusing than not using the setting?

house · 03-10-2022, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Larrymc

Nice images for the time of day. Are these images processed from RAW files or are these OOC JPG images? I take it that they are processed from DNG or RAW files but I'm just confirming everything. Is it your opinion that using custom image auto select mode gives you more accurate focusing than not using the setting?

You're correct! It's the GR II that turns on face detect when portrait custom image is selected.

Nevertheless it's an example of Ricoh using what on the surface is jpeg colour style setting to control AF settings. It would be interesting to hear from GR III (x) users if Ricoh still does that. That comparison would be particularly interesting as the software seems to be shared between GR and Pentax recent products. At least the UI has borrowed from each other.

The importance Pentax places on their Custom Image styles is obvious as they push it like nothing else in their marketing. No one get's to showcase Pentax products on Ricoh dime without discussing custom image styles. Perhaps the role of custom image is even deeper than I imagined.

leekil · 03-10-2022, 07:56 PM - **2 Likes**

Quote:

the PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System instantly detects the subject's face and eyes using the advanced image recognition technology, then makes real-time analysis of their movement. This assists the camera in optimizing exposure settings and improving autofocusing accuracy. By adopting Deep Learning**** -- the latest, much-publicized artificial intelligence technology -- the PENTAX K-3 Mark III assures more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment.

**** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select.

What they are saying is that the camera uses Deep Learning, for accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgement.

But it uses deep learning for *subject detection* in Scene Analyze Auto, and it uses it for *more reliable scene judgement* in Auto Select Custom Image Mode, not both in either mode.

---------- Post added 03-10-22 at 07:58 PM ----------

Frankly, I think it's a ridiculous limitation that you have to be in a heavily auto mode for subject detection, and it isn't a separate setting you can turn on at any time.

Unregistered User · 03-11-2022, 05:13 AM - **1 Like**

My two cents is that if you want the camera to decide the exposure for you in a "smart" way you use the auto modes. Automatic Custom Image is for choosing Landscape profile if you are taking images of a landscape and profile portrait if photographing a person. I do not think that it is more to it than that. In the AF-part of this I think it is only necessary to set the camera to the proposed AF-point selection and you will have subject tracking using the "AI" from the RGB-sensor. No need for selecting Custom image Auto or Exposure Auto. Also, I believe, that the deep learning is done in a Pentax lab, not in the camera.

licht96 · 03-13-2022, 01:22 AM

Totally agreed to this.
The mentioned texts are often made by commercial people, who sat a week before together with the engineers, made no notes and didn't sent the article for corrections to the engineers, before releasing it.
Its the same in my businesses: I'm an engineer and it happened like described above with some marketing people.

03-09-2022, 01:04 PM - 1 Like	#36
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by Larrymc I stand corrected, it does indeed say that. I have always been under the impression that custom image settings only affected JPG output and indeed they do only affect JPG output. I set up my Mk III on one of my tripods and shot a series of nine shots three each using Auto Mode, TAV Custom image Auto and TAV Custom image Flat, defocusing and refocusing after each shot. I took a look at the RAW output in Fast Raw Viewer and also DXO PhotoLab 5 with the standard correction disabled. There is no difference in the DNG files in any of the shots all the histograms are essentially the same, the camera did, however, recognize the scene and apply what I though was the appropriate scene settings for both the Auto Mode and the TAV custom image auto. Additionally Auto Mode seems to scatter the in focus point all around the target where as TAV with custom image auto puts the focus right where it was intended. My main concern was if the RAW output was affected at all by Auto Mode or Custom Image Auto. So I think I am still confused but I will do some more testing on different subject and hopefully my confusion will subside. Although the custom image is not used for RAW images it may have to be activated for the "Real-time Scene Analysis System" to be active. There are many different functions interconnected in the RTSA pipelline, so if disabling some of them the whole pipeline may get deactivated. It probably just a design choice, but it may also be that the processing can be quicker if designed like this. Attached Images

03-09-2022, 04:02 PM	#38
The Squirrel Mafia Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 3,054	^ I see. K-3 Mark III Owner's Manual From Page 62 in the manual: Subject recognition. You can make settings so that the recognized subject is prioritized while autofocusing when [AF Active Area] is set to [Auto Area] or [Zone Select]. Page 63 has a table for the Active Area AF & tells you what each type of autofocus does. So my guess is that basic subject recognition alone is handled by those autofocus settings in any mode outside of AUTO. We already know that subject recognition is available in AUTO. 6. PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System, supported by the latest artificial intelligence technology ^ Here's is where the confusion seems to come in. According to what I gathered from the vague Section 6, there's an additional "Deep Learning Technology" that seems to work on top of the subject recognition once you turn the dial to AUTO or set the Custom Image mode to Auto Select in any mode outside of AUTO. The funny thing is that the owner's manual doesn't mention anything about "Deep Learning Technology". The downside is that you're very limited when shooting in AUTO or you're stuck with whatever image tone the camera decides to give you when using Auto Select. You might get Natural, Bright, Landscape, Portrait, or whatever the camera thinks is appropriate for that scene. That kind of sucks for jpeg shooters that rely on the OOC jpegs, but RAW shooters can keep using their own RAW converter settings & get whatever color they want. Good old vague Pentax. Hahaha!

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03-09-2022, 05:10 AM	#31
rogerstg Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 1,168	Originally posted by house Who sets up a lab grade experiment Interesting concept, but, rhetorically, how does one test AI "learning"? How much teaching is needed before the camera learns enough to produce a noticeable improvement? Maybe "deep learning" is more marketing than literal. It would be great if someone knowledgeable about the technology and various focus tracking scenarios could explain how the functions interact for best results.

03-09-2022, 07:38 AM	#32
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	My post was tongue in cheek, but really, if users can't detect a difference between the settings they don't exist for practical purposes.

03-09-2022, 08:01 AM - 2 Likes	#33
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by rogerstg Interesting concept, but, rhetorically, how does one test AI "learning"? How much teaching is needed before the camera learns enough to produce a noticeable improvement? Maybe "deep learning" is more marketing than literal. It would be great if someone knowledgeable about the technology and various focus tracking scenarios could explain how the functions interact for best results. I do not think the camera have any learning abilities. The learning is done in the Ricoh lab before the firmware is created. Then it is only Ricoh that can improve the algorithms by using large amount of data in fine tuning of the deep learning algorithms. So the algorithms may have improved on updated frmware versions.

03-09-2022, 10:16 AM - 1 Like	#34
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,252	Originally posted by Paul the Sunman That's not what Pentax says: ... the PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System instantly detects the subject's face and eyes using the advanced image recognition technology, then makes real-time analysis of their movement. This assists the camera in optimizing exposure settings and improving autofocusing accuracy. By adopting Deep Learning** -- the latest, much-publicized artificial intelligence technology -- the PENTAX K-3 Mark III assures more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment. ** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select. I stand corrected, it does indeed say that. I have always been under the impression that custom image settings only affected JPG output and indeed they do only affect JPG output. I set up my Mk III on one of my tripods and shot a series of nine shots three each using Auto Mode, TAV Custom image Auto and TAV Custom image Flat, defocusing and refocusing after each shot. I took a look at the RAW output in Fast Raw Viewer and also DXO PhotoLab 5 with the standard correction disabled. There is no difference in the DNG files in any of the shots all the histograms are essentially the same, the camera did, however, recognize the scene and apply what I though was the appropriate scene settings for both the Auto Mode and the TAV custom image auto. Additionally Auto Mode seems to scatter the in focus point all around the target where as TAV with custom image auto puts the focus right where it was intended. My main concern was if the RAW output was affected at all by Auto Mode or Custom Image Auto. So I think I am still confused but I will do some more testing on different subject and hopefully my confusion will subside.

03-09-2022, 11:44 AM	#35
The Squirrel Mafia Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 3,054	^ Interesting! So setting the Custom Image mode to Auto Select plus setting the Active AF Area to Auto Area or Zone Select will turn on subject recognition in any other setting outside of AUTO?

03-09-2022, 02:56 PM - 1 Like	#37
rogerstg Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 1,168	Originally posted by The Squirrel Mafia ^ Interesting! So setting the Custom Image mode to Auto Select plus setting the Active AF Area to Auto Area or Zone Select will turn on subject recognition in any other setting outside of AUTO? If I read it correctly, it will turn on "Deep Learning . . . [for] more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment." You'll probably still need to turn on "Subject Recognition."

03-09-2022, 04:28 PM	#39
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,843	Originally posted by Michaelina2 Here's a 'quick 'n dirty' of a normal wildlike encounter in a complex scene...... So I guess consistency isn't a priority.

03-09-2022, 04:39 PM	#40
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by house Thing is though that previous Pentax models required Portrait custom image to enable face detect in live view. Clearly not true! I never use Portrait custom image but often use face detect in Live View.

03-09-2022, 05:42 PM	#41
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,252	Originally posted by Michaelina2 Here's a 'quick 'n dirty' of a normal wildlike encounter in a complex scene...... K-3 MkIII+DA 70-210/4, handheld, native lighting, close crop, LR CC+NIK... Camera/lens image capture position/settings and post-processing the same. Environmental settings vary naturally, wind, lighting, etc. Time interval (say) 2 minutes during sunset. Custom Image Mode = Auto Select Active Area = Zone Select Custom Image Mode = Auto Select Active Area = Auto Area Not perfect, but... you get the idea. Cheers and enjoy the season... M Nice images for the time of day. Are these images processed from RAW files or are these OOC JPG images? I take it that they are processed from DNG or RAW files but I'm just confirming everything. Is it your opinion that using custom image auto select mode gives you more accurate focusing than not using the setting?

03-10-2022, 04:35 AM	#42
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Originally posted by Larrymc Nice images for the time of day. Are these images processed from RAW files or are these OOC JPG images? I take it that they are processed from DNG or RAW files but I'm just confirming everything. Is it your opinion that using custom image auto select mode gives you more accurate focusing than not using the setting? You're correct! It's the GR II that turns on face detect when portrait custom image is selected. Nevertheless it's an example of Ricoh using what on the surface is jpeg colour style setting to control AF settings. It would be interesting to hear from GR III (x) users if Ricoh still does that. That comparison would be particularly interesting as the software seems to be shared between GR and Pentax recent products. At least the UI has borrowed from each other. The importance Pentax places on their Custom Image styles is obvious as they push it like nothing else in their marketing. No one get's to showcase Pentax products on Ricoh dime without discussing custom image styles. Perhaps the role of custom image is even deeper than I imagined.

03-10-2022, 07:56 PM - 2 Likes	#43
leekil Pentaxian Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 2,003	Quote: the PENTAX Real-time Scene Analysis System instantly detects the subject's face and eyes using the advanced image recognition technology, then makes real-time analysis of their movement. This assists the camera in optimizing exposure settings and improving autofocusing accuracy. By adopting Deep Learning** -- the latest, much-publicized artificial intelligence technology -- the PENTAX K-3 Mark III assures more accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgment. ** Deep Learning technology is available when the exposure mode is set to Scene Analyze Auto, or when the Custom Image mode is set to Auto Select. What they are saying is that the camera uses Deep Learning, for accurate subject detection and more reliable scene judgement. But it uses deep learning for subject detection in Scene Analyze Auto, and it uses it for more reliable scene judgement in Auto Select Custom Image Mode, not both in either mode. ---------- Post added 03-10-22 at 07:58 PM ---------- Frankly, I think it's a ridiculous limitation that you have to be in a heavily auto mode for subject detection, and it isn't a separate setting you can turn on at any time.

03-11-2022, 05:13 AM - 1 Like	#44
Unregistered User Guest	My two cents is that if you want the camera to decide the exposure for you in a "smart" way you use the auto modes. Automatic Custom Image is for choosing Landscape profile if you are taking images of a landscape and profile portrait if photographing a person. I do not think that it is more to it than that. In the AF-part of this I think it is only necessary to set the camera to the proposed AF-point selection and you will have subject tracking using the "AI" from the RGB-sensor. No need for selecting Custom image Auto or Exposure Auto. Also, I believe, that the deep learning is done in a Pentax lab, not in the camera.

03-13-2022, 01:22 AM	#45
licht96 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Braunschweig Posts: 92	Totally agreed to this. The mentioned texts are often made by commercial people, who sat a week before together with the engineers, made no notes and didn't sent the article for corrections to the engineers, before releasing it. Its the same in my businesses: I'm an engineer and it happened like described above with some marketing people.