K3 III - To Format SD card or not to Format?

slartibartfast01 · 07-20-2022, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by kypfer

Mine contains a K-3_III sub-directory with a 14.3kb FILES.DAT in it … nothing else.
That file was last updated at the same time as the last image file was created, though it was initially created about 14 months ago, shortly after I bought the camera.
As you might have guessed, the card hasn't been re-formatted in that whole time, much as the cards in my other cameras never get re-formatted!

If you have a spare SD card lying around you could try formatting it on a PC then see if the Pentax folder is created when the card is inserted in the camera.

**Larrymc** · 07-20-2022, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

You have a question in front if you please answer it.

A recap: How many kb is the folder in question?

I just reformatted my SD card after I downloaded today's DNG files and the file size is 3.2 kb. I reformat after every download and have not noticed anything out of the ordinary happening. All of this sounds like a lot of worry about nothing, but to each his own.

kypfer · 07-21-2022, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by slartibartfast01

If you have a spare SD card lying around you could try formatting it on a PC then see if the Pentax folder is created when the card is inserted in the camera.

OK … done that … insert a PC-formatted card into the camera and the DCIM, PENTAX and PENTAX/K-3-III folders are created immediately, without switching the camera on. This'll be the flicker of the orange "Card Access Lamp" when the card is inserted
The FILES.DAT isn't created until a picture is taken … in this case, with the first lens to hand, a pre-set manual 28mm, the file is 88 bytes.
If anyone wants more detail than that they can create their own FILES.DAT files with different lenses and compare the contents thereof (which aren't in text or other recognisable format).
Enjoy

**Kobie** · 07-21-2022, 04:27 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I would like to see any evidence of the camera using data from the sd card for anything beyond sd card operations and info like remaining space.

Okay, here you go.

Youtu.be

---------- Post added 07-21-22 at 07:28 AM ----------

Originally posted by Larrymc

Please point us to the information supplied by Kobie relating to the potential value of data collected and stored in the PENTAX folder that relates to AI learning. I'm not aware of any at all.

As you wish...

reallybothered · 07-21-2022, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Kobie

Okay, here you go.
https://youtu.be/2UBJ8LGbUcM

---------- Post added 07-21-22 at 07:28 AM ----------

As you wish...

Thanks Kobie. This is the video I was searching for.

Hope your AC problem is fixed and things are cooler now!

**Kobie** · 07-21-2022, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by reallybothered

Thanks Kobie. This is the video I was searching for.

Hope your AC problem is fixed and things are cooler now!

Thanks! It's all cool now

**UncleVanya** · 07-21-2022, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Kobie

Thanks! It's all cool now

I watched the video. I don’t see anywhere that suggested that the contents of the Pentax folder were attributed to 1) performance of the subject identification and tracking or 2) changing as a result of using the camera. A simple test might be to shoot a lot of subjects like birds in the auto scene mode and copy the sd card then format an identical card and do multiple tests to see if the card with the longer experience did anything different. Then take the two folders and swap them 1 for 1 but leave everything else alone. Having worked with ai experts myself I can’t see the camera doing any deep learning that persists from one session to another - I can see it leveraging ai to use the heuristic rules built by analysis and baked into the camera firmware. That’s different than using traditional subject recognition models in that these would use learning during model training which requires feedback from someone about the accuracy of the results.

**Kobie** · 07-21-2022, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I watched the video. I don’t see anywhere that suggested that the contents of the Pentax folder were attributed to 1) performance of the subject identification and tracking or 2) changing as a result of using the camera. A simple test might be to shoot a lot of subjects like birds in the auto scene mode and copy the sd card then format an identical card and do multiple tests to see if the card with the longer experience did anything different. Then take the two folders and swap them 1 for 1 but leave everything else alone. Having worked with ai experts myself I can’t see the camera doing any deep learning that persists from one session to another - I can see it leveraging ai to use the heuristic rules built by analysis and baked into the camera firmware. That’s different than using traditional subject recognition models in that these would use learning during model training which requires feedback from someone about the accuracy of the results.

The camera doesn't "learn" anything. The folder is basically a preset database driven from the camera within the firmware itself. It's pretty much "if/and" statement call outs. Why it's stored in the SD cards, I have no idea. The size of those folders will never change unless more is added via another firmware update.

**Larrymc** · 07-21-2022, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Kobie

The camera doesn't "learn" anything. The folder is basically a preset database driven from the camera within the firmware itself. It's pretty much "if/and" statement call outs. Why it's stored in the SD cards, I have no idea. The size of those folders will never change unless more is added via another firmware update.

So if someone never updates their Mk III firmware they aren't getting the benefit of the additional "machine learning" provided by the firmware updates?

**Kobie** · 07-21-2022, 01:17 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Larrymc

So if someone never updates their Mk III firmware they aren't getting the benefit of the additional "machine learning" provided by the firmware updates?

Correct.

**UncleVanya** · 07-21-2022, 04:12 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kobie

The camera doesn't "learn" anything. The folder is basically a preset database driven from the camera within the firmware itself. It's pretty much "if/and" statement call outs. Why it's stored in the SD cards, I have no idea. The size of those folders will never change unless more is added via another firmware update.

Read post #1 of this thread. That post suggested a concern about formatting the ad cards due to possible loss of data that is used by the camera. I was asserting that nothing you said suggested there was data that accrued over time but there was a simple test to determine this.

Additionally I would point out that a lot of k3iii owners are reporting different sizes of these folders and some are t seeing the folder at all. It’s wonky. It doesn’t make sense to write this out to disk from firmware at least not to me. I’m confused as heck.

I don’t own a k3iii so I’m watching with interest.

R.Miller · 07-21-2022, 06:15 PM

My Panasonic Lumix does this. It creates separate folders for different file formats for still images vs video. When I first got the Lumix I was surprised to see the extra folders after all the years with Pentax. The DAT file may just keep temporary tracking or house keeping info for them. Makes sense. It would make no sense whatsoever to put critical "learning" data on a temporary storage media.

Maybe the K3.3 is doing something similar.

Where does the camera store the photo and video files on the SD card?

**Kobie** · 07-21-2022, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by R.Miller

My Panasonic Lumix does this. It creates separate folders for different file formats for still images vs video. When I first got the Lumix I was surprised to see the extra folders after all the years with Pentax. The DAT file may just keep temporary tracking or house keeping info for them. Makes sense. It would make no sense whatsoever to put critical "learning" data on a temporary storage media.

Maybe the K3.3 is doing something similar.

Where does the camera store the photo and video files on the SD card?

The K-3 III does something different. Inside each SD card are 2 folders. One is DCIM which only has photo and video files. The other folder is PENTAX. They are separate folders in the root of the card.

**UncleVanya** · 07-21-2022, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Kobie

The K-3 III does something different. Inside each SD card are 2 folders. One is DCIM which only has photo and video files. The other folder is PENTAX. They are separate folders in the root of the card.

Maybe people should save copies of these folders to compare.

phoebus · 07-22-2022, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Maybe people should save copies of these folders to compare.

Any chance the data is used for the Image Sync app?

07-20-2022, 08:16 PM	#17
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by Wheatfield You have a question in front if you please answer it. A recap: How many kb is the folder in question? I just reformatted my SD card after I downloaded today's DNG files and the file size is 3.2 kb. I reformat after every download and have not noticed anything out of the ordinary happening. All of this sounds like a lot of worry about nothing, but to each his own. Last edited by Larrymc; 07-20-2022 at 08:25 PM.

07-21-2022, 12:06 AM	#18
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,593	Originally posted by slartibartfast01 If you have a spare SD card lying around you could try formatting it on a PC then see if the Pentax folder is created when the card is inserted in the camera. OK … done that … insert a PC-formatted card into the camera and the DCIM, PENTAX and PENTAX/K-3-III folders are created immediately, without switching the camera on. This'll be the flicker of the orange "Card Access Lamp" when the card is inserted The FILES.DAT isn't created until a picture is taken … in this case, with the first lens to hand, a pre-set manual 28mm, the file is 88 bytes. If anyone wants more detail than that they can create their own FILES.DAT files with different lenses and compare the contents thereof (which aren't in text or other recognisable format). Enjoy Last edited by kypfer; 07-21-2022 at 12:07 AM. Reason: typo

07-21-2022, 04:12 PM - 1 Like	#26
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Kobie The camera doesn't "learn" anything. The folder is basically a preset database driven from the camera within the firmware itself. It's pretty much "if/and" statement call outs. Why it's stored in the SD cards, I have no idea. The size of those folders will never change unless more is added via another firmware update. Read post #1 of this thread. That post suggested a concern about formatting the ad cards due to possible loss of data that is used by the camera. I was asserting that nothing you said suggested there was data that accrued over time but there was a simple test to determine this. Additionally I would point out that a lot of k3iii owners are reporting different sizes of these folders and some are t seeing the folder at all. It’s wonky. It doesn’t make sense to write this out to disk from firmware at least not to me. I’m confused as heck. I don’t own a k3iii so I’m watching with interest. Last edited by UncleVanya; 07-21-2022 at 04:19 PM.

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07-20-2022, 03:18 PM	#16
slartibartfast01 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,931	Originally posted by kypfer Mine contains a K-3_III sub-directory with a 14.3kb FILES.DAT in it … nothing else. That file was last updated at the same time as the last image file was created, though it was initially created about 14 months ago, shortly after I bought the camera. As you might have guessed, the card hasn't been re-formatted in that whole time, much as the cards in my other cameras never get re-formatted! If you have a spare SD card lying around you could try formatting it on a PC then see if the Pentax folder is created when the card is inserted in the camera.

07-21-2022, 07:21 AM	#20
reallybothered New Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 19 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kobie Okay, here you go. https://youtu.be/2UBJ8LGbUcM ---------- Post added 07-21-22 at 07:28 AM ---------- As you wish... Thanks Kobie. This is the video I was searching for. Hope your AC problem is fixed and things are cooler now!

07-21-2022, 08:22 AM	#21
Kobie Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Bowmanville Photos: Albums Posts: 1,211	Originally posted by reallybothered Thanks Kobie. This is the video I was searching for. Hope your AC problem is fixed and things are cooler now! Thanks! It's all cool now

07-21-2022, 10:50 AM	#22
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Kobie Thanks! It's all cool now I watched the video. I don’t see anywhere that suggested that the contents of the Pentax folder were attributed to 1) performance of the subject identification and tracking or 2) changing as a result of using the camera. A simple test might be to shoot a lot of subjects like birds in the auto scene mode and copy the sd card then format an identical card and do multiple tests to see if the card with the longer experience did anything different. Then take the two folders and swap them 1 for 1 but leave everything else alone. Having worked with ai experts myself I can’t see the camera doing any deep learning that persists from one session to another - I can see it leveraging ai to use the heuristic rules built by analysis and baked into the camera firmware. That’s different than using traditional subject recognition models in that these would use learning during model training which requires feedback from someone about the accuracy of the results.

07-21-2022, 11:39 AM	#23
Kobie Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Bowmanville Photos: Albums Posts: 1,211	Originally posted by UncleVanya I watched the video. I don’t see anywhere that suggested that the contents of the Pentax folder were attributed to 1) performance of the subject identification and tracking or 2) changing as a result of using the camera. A simple test might be to shoot a lot of subjects like birds in the auto scene mode and copy the sd card then format an identical card and do multiple tests to see if the card with the longer experience did anything different. Then take the two folders and swap them 1 for 1 but leave everything else alone. Having worked with ai experts myself I can’t see the camera doing any deep learning that persists from one session to another - I can see it leveraging ai to use the heuristic rules built by analysis and baked into the camera firmware. That’s different than using traditional subject recognition models in that these would use learning during model training which requires feedback from someone about the accuracy of the results. The camera doesn't "learn" anything. The folder is basically a preset database driven from the camera within the firmware itself. It's pretty much "if/and" statement call outs. Why it's stored in the SD cards, I have no idea. The size of those folders will never change unless more is added via another firmware update.

07-21-2022, 01:04 PM	#24
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by Kobie The camera doesn't "learn" anything. The folder is basically a preset database driven from the camera within the firmware itself. It's pretty much "if/and" statement call outs. Why it's stored in the SD cards, I have no idea. The size of those folders will never change unless more is added via another firmware update. So if someone never updates their Mk III firmware they aren't getting the benefit of the additional "machine learning" provided by the firmware updates?

07-21-2022, 01:17 PM - 1 Like	#25
Kobie Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Bowmanville Photos: Albums Posts: 1,211	Originally posted by Larrymc So if someone never updates their Mk III firmware they aren't getting the benefit of the additional "machine learning" provided by the firmware updates? Correct.

07-21-2022, 06:15 PM	#27
R.Miller Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Midwest Coastal Region USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 426	My Panasonic Lumix does this. It creates separate folders for different file formats for still images vs video. When I first got the Lumix I was surprised to see the extra folders after all the years with Pentax. The DAT file may just keep temporary tracking or house keeping info for them. Makes sense. It would make no sense whatsoever to put critical "learning" data on a temporary storage media. Maybe the K3.3 is doing something similar. Where does the camera store the photo and video files on the SD card?

07-21-2022, 06:37 PM	#28
Kobie Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Bowmanville Photos: Albums Posts: 1,211	Originally posted by R.Miller My Panasonic Lumix does this. It creates separate folders for different file formats for still images vs video. When I first got the Lumix I was surprised to see the extra folders after all the years with Pentax. The DAT file may just keep temporary tracking or house keeping info for them. Makes sense. It would make no sense whatsoever to put critical "learning" data on a temporary storage media. Maybe the K3.3 is doing something similar. Where does the camera store the photo and video files on the SD card? The K-3 III does something different. Inside each SD card are 2 folders. One is DCIM which only has photo and video files. The other folder is PENTAX. They are separate folders in the root of the card.

07-21-2022, 07:31 PM	#29
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Kobie The K-3 III does something different. Inside each SD card are 2 folders. One is DCIM which only has photo and video files. The other folder is PENTAX. They are separate folders in the root of the card. Maybe people should save copies of these folders to compare.

07-22-2022, 10:05 AM	#30
phoebus Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Buckinghamshire (UK) / Morbihan (FR) Photos: Gallery Posts: 470	Originally posted by UncleVanya Maybe people should save copies of these folders to compare. Any chance the data is used for the Image Sync app?