Rear Curtain Sync Off Camera

Nass · 04-23-2012, 01:24 PM

Success!

This is a wireless, rear sync (also called second- or trailing-curtain), M42 (or ANY non -a lens), manual power Pentax K-7 solution that's working for me. Documenting it here in case anyone else needs this in the future and so it can be found in Google

A Metz 58II is mounted to my K7 body via a PTTL lead. The Metz is set as master, on manual, with 1/64 power setting, on rear sync.
My 2x Pentax 540 and 1x Pentax 360 are set as wireless slaves, on manual at 1/whatever.
Result: all 4 flashes operate at rear sync, with the 3 Pentax flashes controlled wirelessly.
It works, perfectly, no extra gizmos needed. But, bloody expensive.

sandilands · 04-24-2012, 12:45 PM

Glad it worked, but yes, a pile of money. So is the secret that the Metz flash can be set to trailing curtain @ 1/64 independent of the camera? Do you set rhe camera to trailing curtain? If the camera is set to trailing curtain what does the Metz do with the preflash coming from the camera through the PTTL cable?

I guess my first question is what is the flash mode you set on the camera? Does the Metz have the smarts to recognize the preflash signal separately from the trailing curtain signal?

Nass · 04-24-2012, 02:54 PM

The credit here goes to the Metz unit. On Pentax units trailing and manual is an "OR" choice, on the slider. On the Metz, it is an "AND" choice, by setting manual as its mode, and trailing as an option against that choice. I don't even have "flash" set on the camera, it's just a normal 2s manual exposure but with flash on manual connected (the Metz via a PTTL lead). I don't get a preflash either (because I'm using a non-a lens).

I don't honestly know what the Metz would do with a lens set on -a, although, not sure if there would even be a preflash because I'm not even using PTTL...

**RKKS08** · 04-24-2012, 04:57 PM

Maybe I don't understand correctly, or it's because I just own a K200D, but I have done similar things without investing such amounts of money.

If you use an older Metz 40MZ-2 (or -1 or -3) with an adapter SCA3701M2 or any SCA3702, and set camera and SCA adapter to rear curtain, the problem is already solved. As this flash/SCA combination doesn't understand about pTTL, there will be no pre flash. Camera can be in any mode (manual to be preferred), flash in any mode except TTL. The MZ40 has the same power as the newer "58" ones (calculation of GN has changed), and you can get it on eBay together with the SCA adapter for €50-80. With simple photo triggers, you can fire as many additional cheap old flashes as you want, and they all would automatically work with trailing curtain, too.

If you don't want the flash on top of the camera, you could use a Metz G16 power grip with the SCA3000A cable connector - unfortunately, these are not in production any more and offered seldom. But I just got a G16 (like new) from a German seller, and the SCA3000A brand new from South Africa, together including shipping for less than €35.

Last edited by RKKS08; 04-27-2012 at 06:03 AM.

Nass · 05-14-2012, 06:08 AM

Strange

I've just noticed that when I do this setup, my K7 insists on using autoWB eventhough it's set at 5k with a manual 1s exposure. As it transpires, works very well, but does this behaviour ring any bells for anyone?

Thanks

Dhruba · 12-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Nass

Strange

I've just noticed that when I do this setup, my K7 insists on using autoWB eventhough it's set at 5k with a manual 1s exposure. As it transpires, works very well, but does this behaviour ring any bells for anyone?

Thanks

Hello Naas and everybody else

After reading your post on Metz 58 Af-2, I recently bought one to use with my K-5. If I mount it directly on the camera hotshoe, the Metz works in manual and rear curtain without a pre-flash. I wish to be able to use it wirelessly with radio triggers. Nass, your plan appears to be IR triggered. Am I right?

In any case, I was not able to figure out how to set the Metz to be a commander and in Manual mode. I did not find that instruction in the printed manual book. How do you do it, Nass?

Ideally, I wish to be able to radio trigger the Metz and Pentax 540 fgz flashes in manual second curtain. Is this possible? Thank you for your help.

I am getting cactus v6s soon. I use Aokatec triggers right now, also in manual mode.

sandilands · 12-19-2014, 06:26 PM

The Metz overcomes a problem with the camera, much like the digi-adapt. The trouble with that is from there on you are triggering optically. A radio trigger works fine on the digi-adapt but only after the digi-adapt "sees" the series of flashes from the popup. I don't have a high end radio trigger like a pocket wizard, but maybe they have some smarts similar to the Metz. I use Elinchrom Skyports which have pretty basic functionality. The camera doesn't recognize the Skyport so no direct rear curtain.

From what I have found, the K5 will only send a rear curtain "signal" to the pop-up flash, or when if finds or think it finds a Pentax 360 / 540 mounted on the camera or via a PTTL cable.

The cactus v6 looks interesting but I couldn't find anything in the literature that would suggest it will solve the problem. It does claim to have Pentax profiles which hopefully means the K5 will think it is a Pentax flash.

Let us know if the V6 works.

Dhruba · 12-20-2014, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by sandilands

The Metz overcomes a problem with the camera, much like the digi-adapt. The trouble with that is from there on you are triggering optically. A radio trigger works fine on the digi-adapt but only after the digi-adapt "sees" the series of flashes from the popup. I don't have a high end radio trigger like a pocket wizard, but maybe they have some smarts similar to the Metz. I use Elinchrom Skyports which have pretty basic functionality. The camera doesn't recognize the Skyport so no direct rear curtain.

From what I have found, the K5 will only send a rear curtain "signal" to the pop-up flash, or when if finds or think it finds a Pentax 360 / 540 mounted on the camera or via a PTTL cable.

The cactus v6 looks interesting but I couldn't find anything in the literature that would suggest it will solve the problem. It does claim to have Pentax profiles which hopefully means the K5 will think it is a Pentax flash.

Let us know if the V6 works.

Hello Sandilands

I have good news to report with the cactus v6 triggers. It has a feature called delay timer. It does a fancy type of rear curtain sync. I bought 3 v6 triggers. I mounted one on my K-5 hotshoe and set it as TX. Then I mounted a Pentax 540 fgz flash on another v6, and the Metz 58 af-2 flash on another v6. Now is the interesting part. You only have to set the delay timer on the v6 TX. Do not need to mess with the RX v6 triggers. After setting a delay time, I press the shutter, and BOTH Pentax 540 and the Metz fired with the rear-curtain. I was really impressed! The delay timer is not quite on-the-fly, but good enough for me, at least for now.

There is a bit of calculation you have to do for the delay times. If I set the shutter at 1 sec, and the delay time at 999 millisec (I second is 1000 millisecond), the v6 TX will send out instruction to fire at the last millisecond. To calculate what the other delay times should be, you need to divide 1000 with the shutter time. For example, 1/90 second shutter is 1000/90 = 11 ms, so I set the delay time at 10 ms. Say you want to shoot at 1/20 sec, set the delay timer at 49 ms. I made a little table for convenience.

I think I am going to sell my Aokatec trigger set, I never used the P-TTL even once since I got these triggers. I imagine the v6 triggers will do it for me :-)

04-23-2012, 01:24 PM	#16
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	Success! This is a wireless, rear sync (also called second- or trailing-curtain), M42 (or ANY non -a lens), manual power Pentax K-7 solution that's working for me. Documenting it here in case anyone else needs this in the future and so it can be found in Google A Metz 58II is mounted to my K7 body via a PTTL lead. The Metz is set as master, on manual, with 1/64 power setting, on rear sync. My 2x Pentax 540 and 1x Pentax 360 are set as wireless slaves, on manual at 1/whatever. Result: all 4 flashes operate at rear sync, with the 3 Pentax flashes controlled wirelessly. It works, perfectly, no extra gizmos needed. But, bloody expensive.

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04-24-2012, 12:45 PM	#17
sandilands Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Lewiston, NY Posts: 108 Original Poster	Glad it worked, but yes, a pile of money. So is the secret that the Metz flash can be set to trailing curtain @ 1/64 independent of the camera? Do you set rhe camera to trailing curtain? If the camera is set to trailing curtain what does the Metz do with the preflash coming from the camera through the PTTL cable? I guess my first question is what is the flash mode you set on the camera? Does the Metz have the smarts to recognize the preflash signal separately from the trailing curtain signal?

04-24-2012, 02:54 PM	#18
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	The credit here goes to the Metz unit. On Pentax units trailing and manual is an "OR" choice, on the slider. On the Metz, it is an "AND" choice, by setting manual as its mode, and trailing as an option against that choice. I don't even have "flash" set on the camera, it's just a normal 2s manual exposure but with flash on manual connected (the Metz via a PTTL lead). I don't get a preflash either (because I'm using a non-a lens). I don't honestly know what the Metz would do with a lens set on -a, although, not sure if there would even be a preflash because I'm not even using PTTL...

04-24-2012, 04:57 PM	#19
RKKS08 Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,241	Maybe I don't understand correctly, or it's because I just own a K200D, but I have done similar things without investing such amounts of money. If you use an older Metz 40MZ-2 (or -1 or -3) with an adapter SCA3701M2 or any SCA3702, and set camera and SCA adapter to rear curtain, the problem is already solved. As this flash/SCA combination doesn't understand about pTTL, there will be no pre flash. Camera can be in any mode (manual to be preferred), flash in any mode except TTL. The MZ40 has the same power as the newer "58" ones (calculation of GN has changed), and you can get it on eBay together with the SCA adapter for €50-80. With simple photo triggers, you can fire as many additional cheap old flashes as you want, and they all would automatically work with trailing curtain, too. If you don't want the flash on top of the camera, you could use a Metz G16 power grip with the SCA3000A cable connector - unfortunately, these are not in production any more and offered seldom. But I just got a G16 (like new) from a German seller, and the SCA3000A brand new from South Africa, together including shipping for less than €35. Last edited by RKKS08; 04-27-2012 at 06:03 AM.

05-14-2012, 06:08 AM	#20
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	Strange I've just noticed that when I do this setup, my K7 insists on using autoWB eventhough it's set at 5k with a manual 1s exposure. As it transpires, works very well, but does this behaviour ring any bells for anyone? Thanks

12-15-2014, 02:36 PM	#21
Dhruba Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 106	Originally posted by Nass Strange I've just noticed that when I do this setup, my K7 insists on using autoWB eventhough it's set at 5k with a manual 1s exposure. As it transpires, works very well, but does this behaviour ring any bells for anyone? Thanks Hello Naas and everybody else After reading your post on Metz 58 Af-2, I recently bought one to use with my K-5. If I mount it directly on the camera hotshoe, the Metz works in manual and rear curtain without a pre-flash. I wish to be able to use it wirelessly with radio triggers. Nass, your plan appears to be IR triggered. Am I right? In any case, I was not able to figure out how to set the Metz to be a commander and in Manual mode. I did not find that instruction in the printed manual book. How do you do it, Nass? Ideally, I wish to be able to radio trigger the Metz and Pentax 540 fgz flashes in manual second curtain. Is this possible? Thank you for your help. I am getting cactus v6s soon. I use Aokatec triggers right now, also in manual mode.

12-19-2014, 06:26 PM	#22
sandilands Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Lewiston, NY Posts: 108 Original Poster	The Metz overcomes a problem with the camera, much like the digi-adapt. The trouble with that is from there on you are triggering optically. A radio trigger works fine on the digi-adapt but only after the digi-adapt "sees" the series of flashes from the popup. I don't have a high end radio trigger like a pocket wizard, but maybe they have some smarts similar to the Metz. I use Elinchrom Skyports which have pretty basic functionality. The camera doesn't recognize the Skyport so no direct rear curtain. From what I have found, the K5 will only send a rear curtain "signal" to the pop-up flash, or when if finds or think it finds a Pentax 360 / 540 mounted on the camera or via a PTTL cable. The cactus v6 looks interesting but I couldn't find anything in the literature that would suggest it will solve the problem. It does claim to have Pentax profiles which hopefully means the K5 will think it is a Pentax flash. Let us know if the V6 works.

12-20-2014, 01:00 AM	#23
Dhruba Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 106	Originally posted by sandilands The Metz overcomes a problem with the camera, much like the digi-adapt. The trouble with that is from there on you are triggering optically. A radio trigger works fine on the digi-adapt but only after the digi-adapt "sees" the series of flashes from the popup. I don't have a high end radio trigger like a pocket wizard, but maybe they have some smarts similar to the Metz. I use Elinchrom Skyports which have pretty basic functionality. The camera doesn't recognize the Skyport so no direct rear curtain. From what I have found, the K5 will only send a rear curtain "signal" to the pop-up flash, or when if finds or think it finds a Pentax 360 / 540 mounted on the camera or via a PTTL cable. The cactus v6 looks interesting but I couldn't find anything in the literature that would suggest it will solve the problem. It does claim to have Pentax profiles which hopefully means the K5 will think it is a Pentax flash. Let us know if the V6 works. Hello Sandilands I have good news to report with the cactus v6 triggers. It has a feature called delay timer. It does a fancy type of rear curtain sync. I bought 3 v6 triggers. I mounted one on my K-5 hotshoe and set it as TX. Then I mounted a Pentax 540 fgz flash on another v6, and the Metz 58 af-2 flash on another v6. Now is the interesting part. You only have to set the delay timer on the v6 TX. Do not need to mess with the RX v6 triggers. After setting a delay time, I press the shutter, and BOTH Pentax 540 and the Metz fired with the rear-curtain. I was really impressed! The delay timer is not quite on-the-fly, but good enough for me, at least for now. There is a bit of calculation you have to do for the delay times. If I set the shutter at 1 sec, and the delay time at 999 millisec (I second is 1000 millisecond), the v6 TX will send out instruction to fire at the last millisecond. To calculate what the other delay times should be, you need to divide 1000 with the shutter time. For example, 1/90 second shutter is 1000/90 = 11 ms, so I set the delay time at 10 ms. Say you want to shoot at 1/20 sec, set the delay timer at 49 ms. I made a little table for convenience. I think I am going to sell my Aokatec trigger set, I never used the P-TTL even once since I got these triggers. I imagine the v6 triggers will do it for me :-)