super macro - 2x + magnification

infoomatic · 12-02-2011, 03:11 PM

Hi,

I'd love do do some super macro photography and wonder with what techniques I am getting a high magnification and high quality image:
1.) bellows?
2.) revert adapter ... heard that a ~ 28mm lens is good for such stuff
3.) rings
4.) macro adapters for lenses (used them but always had heavy CAs)

I'd like to take pictures with 2-10x magnification (similar to what the Canon MP-E 65mm 1-5X Macro Lens can do) but of course for my Pentax system. Any super-macro photographers here? Any hints/experiences?

yeatzee · 12-02-2011, 03:15 PM

search

There's just to much to cover, and I personally don't have the time to go over it all. Literally all the info you seek is on this forum

edit: Of course Rico has all the time in the world so Im sure he'll answer all your questions along with a link to an article he wrote. Just wait until he see's the thread. Newarts will help too im sure

RioRico · 12-02-2011, 03:42 PM - **1 Like**

You rang? Here is the article: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-lens-articles/152336-cheap-macro-b...lose-work.html

Originally posted by infoomatic

1.) bellows?
2.) revert adapter ... heard that a ~ 28mm lens is good for such stuff
3.) rings
4.) macro adapters for lenses (used them but always had heavy CAs)

I'd like to take pictures with 2-10x magnification (similar to what the Canon MP-E 65mm 1-5X Macro Lens can do) but of course for my Pentax system.

Super-macro is micro. Beyond about 5x, you really should use a microscope. Yes, you can reach 10x with various gear and techniques. But camera lenses usually aren't designed for such work.

1+3: Extension (bellows and/or tubes) are the cleanest way to go macro. To reach 10x with a 28mm lens, you would need 280mm of extension. It gets clumsy.

2: Mount-reversal doesn't magnify by itself, it just forces you to work at the lens' register, which with Pentax is ~45.5mm. You still need extension for magnification.

4: Macro and close-up strap-ons are OK for certain close work but are generally not optically good -- except Raynox. See the RAYNOX CLUB here for fine examples.

5: The simplest way for ultra-macro is with reverse lens-stacking. Stack a 30mm prime on a 300mm prime for 10x magnification. Working distance is ~45.5mm.

That's the overview. For more, see the article. Have fun!

Philoslothical · 12-02-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by RioRico

5: The simplest way for ultra-macro is with reverse lens-stacking. Stack a 30mm prime on a 300mm prime for 10x magnification. Working distance is ~45.5mm.

Just to add to that, don't expect to get much in the way of usable images, unless your subject is extremely flat (like a postage stamp). I got to about 8:1, and it's very difficult to handle, and even at 5:1 the DoF is about as thick as a sheet of paper with the aperture open to focus, and not a whole lot better stopped down.

One thing my experimenting has taught me is that I need much less magnification than I thought I would, to shoot most of the subjects I like (e.g. bugs, flower parts, lichens, etc). 1.5:1 is plenty for most things, and I wouldn't want to go much beyond 2:1 for those.

Now, if you get into focus stacking, the game changes. You can use much higher magnification and shoot many "slices" of the subject, merging them in software to keep the focused parts.

infoomatic · 12-03-2011, 09:35 AM

oh, wow! Thank you very much ... the article is a very good point to start!

demp10 · 12-03-2011, 10:20 AM

You will also need a very stable tripod since any movement will change your focus plane. Macro focusing rails will be very useful too.

If you are working outdoors, extension tubes and lens stacking is the most rugged solution. For the second lens you can use any brand as long as the filter threads match (or use stepping rings). In studio, bellows work great. In any case you will need lots of continuous lighting (portable LED is a good choice) to focus and preferably a ring flash to expose. If you subject is very thin and translucent, you may consider to light it from behind using a light table.

Don't even think of focusing through the optical viewfinder alone. Even with split screen and micro prisms is not enough. Use the live preview, set magnification to at least 6X and then try to focus. Plenty of light helps here to get a clear image. Your DOF will be next to nothing so choose the focal plane carefully.

Frogfish · 12-03-2011, 10:29 AM

Guy on another forum has just used a microscope objective on an RMS thread to M42 adapter for microscope objective cone on a fully extended pentax bellows to get 25:1 (focus stacked 41 shots of a fly's eye).

infoomatic · 12-03-2011, 11:48 AM

Frogfish, do you have a link?

liveview is indeed great for macro photography (I am a lucky K5 owner). For the light ... Some friends suggested led lenser lights, but maybe I will try to make a diy-ring-flash with my 540fgz (like this one: DIY ring-flash for your DSLR - SlashGear)

I am quite excited, can't wait to start but probably have to wait until spring when my financial situation is better and when I can go outside and hunt for subjects ;-)

yeatzee · 12-03-2011, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Frogfish

Guy on another forum has just used a microscope objective on an RMS thread to M42 adapter for microscope objective cone on a fully extended pentax bellows to get 25:1 (focus stacked 41 shots of a fly's eye).

Only 41 shots, at 25:1 with an objective? Since it was a fully extended pentax bellows I assume the IQ wasn't very good? Finite objectives need a certain amount of extension to reach their designated magnification, going over or under even a little bit can drastically affect IQ in mine and other's experience.

^ that is 70 images with a 10x objective on the end of my bellows giving me ~10:1. 70 images and still missed quite a lot focus wise, 41 @ 25:1 must be crazy

Frogfish · 12-03-2011, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by infoomatic

Frogfish, do you have a link?

liveview is indeed great for macro photography (I am a lucky K5 owner). For the light ... Some friends suggested led lenser lights, but maybe I will try to make a diy-ring-flash with my 540fgz (like this one: DIY ring-flash for your DSLR - SlashGear)

I am quite excited, can't wait to start but probably have to wait until spring when my financial situation is better and when I can go outside and hunt for subjects ;-)

Next housefly 'eye' close up - Steve's Digicams Forums

Wonderful shot Tanner !

yeatzee · 12-03-2011, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Frogfish

Next housefly 'eye' close up - Steve's Digicams Forums

Wonderful shot Tanner !

Using a 10x objective to reach what he assumes is 25:1 is highly unlikely, and unless im mistaken impossible with just a fully extended bellows. My best guess with that setup is that he is getting probably closer to 13:1. But than again, what do I know

trco · 12-06-2011, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by demp10

You will also need a very stable tripod since any movement will change your focus plane. Macro focusing rails will be very useful too.

Hmmm, that's not quite true

If you have up to 5 shots in stack you can handhold it - and the software is good enough to correct different focus planes.

4 handheld shots stacked together - one of them was way of from others.

yeatzee · 12-06-2011, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by trco

Hmmm, that's not quite true

If you have up to 5 shots in stack you can handhold it - and the software is good enough to correct different focus planes.

4 handheld shots stacked together - one of them was way of from others.

my record is this image iirc, at around 20 handheld

definitely not easy, but definitely possible.

trco · 12-06-2011, 02:34 PM

Excellent image!
It looks like even I underestimated the number of handheld shots. Great job with those 20! Could you tell me which lens did you used? Pentax 50 or el-nikkor? Full set of extension tubes?

yeatzee · 12-06-2011, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by trco

Excellent image!
It looks like even I underestimated the number of handheld shots. Great job with those 20! Could you tell me which lens did you used? Pentax 50 or el-nikkor? Full set of extension tubes?

Thanks. M 50mm F/1.7 reversed on a full set of extension tubes im assuming.

12-02-2011, 03:11 PM	#1
infoomatic Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 255	super macro - 2x + magnification Hi, I'd love do do some super macro photography and wonder with what techniques I am getting a high magnification and high quality image: 1.) bellows? 2.) revert adapter ... heard that a ~ 28mm lens is good for such stuff 3.) rings 4.) macro adapters for lenses (used them but always had heavy CAs) I'd like to take pictures with 2-10x magnification (similar to what the Canon MP-E 65mm 1-5X Macro Lens can do) but of course for my Pentax system. Any super-macro photographers here? Any hints/experiences?

12-02-2011, 03:15 PM	#2
yeatzee Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Temecula Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,675	search There's just to much to cover, and I personally don't have the time to go over it all. Literally all the info you seek is on this forum edit: Of course Rico has all the time in the world so Im sure he'll answer all your questions along with a link to an article he wrote. Just wait until he see's the thread. Newarts will help too im sure Last edited by yeatzee; 12-02-2011 at 06:16 PM.

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12-02-2011, 03:42 PM - 1 Like	#3
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	You rang? Here is the article: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-lens-articles/152336-cheap-macro-b...lose-work.html Originally posted by infoomatic 1.) bellows? 2.) revert adapter ... heard that a ~ 28mm lens is good for such stuff 3.) rings 4.) macro adapters for lenses (used them but always had heavy CAs) I'd like to take pictures with 2-10x magnification (similar to what the Canon MP-E 65mm 1-5X Macro Lens can do) but of course for my Pentax system. Super-macro is micro. Beyond about 5x, you really should use a microscope. Yes, you can reach 10x with various gear and techniques. But camera lenses usually aren't designed for such work. 1+3: Extension (bellows and/or tubes) are the cleanest way to go macro. To reach 10x with a 28mm lens, you would need 280mm of extension. It gets clumsy. 2: Mount-reversal doesn't magnify by itself, it just forces you to work at the lens' register, which with Pentax is ~45.5mm. You still need extension for magnification. 4: Macro and close-up strap-ons are OK for certain close work but are generally not optically good -- except Raynox. See the RAYNOX CLUB here for fine examples. 5: The simplest way for ultra-macro is with reverse lens-stacking. Stack a 30mm prime on a 300mm prime for 10x magnification. Working distance is ~45.5mm. That's the overview. For more, see the article. Have fun!

12-02-2011, 05:55 PM	#4
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	Originally posted by RioRico 5: The simplest way for ultra-macro is with reverse lens-stacking. Stack a 30mm prime on a 300mm prime for 10x magnification. Working distance is ~45.5mm. Just to add to that, don't expect to get much in the way of usable images, unless your subject is extremely flat (like a postage stamp). I got to about 8:1, and it's very difficult to handle, and even at 5:1 the DoF is about as thick as a sheet of paper with the aperture open to focus, and not a whole lot better stopped down. One thing my experimenting has taught me is that I need much less magnification than I thought I would, to shoot most of the subjects I like (e.g. bugs, flower parts, lichens, etc). 1.5:1 is plenty for most things, and I wouldn't want to go much beyond 2:1 for those. Now, if you get into focus stacking, the game changes. You can use much higher magnification and shoot many "slices" of the subject, merging them in software to keep the focused parts.

12-03-2011, 09:35 AM	#5
infoomatic Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 255 Original Poster	oh, wow! Thank you very much ... the article is a very good point to start!

12-03-2011, 10:20 AM	#6
demp10 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Atlanta Photos: Albums Posts: 602	You will also need a very stable tripod since any movement will change your focus plane. Macro focusing rails will be very useful too. If you are working outdoors, extension tubes and lens stacking is the most rugged solution. For the second lens you can use any brand as long as the filter threads match (or use stepping rings). In studio, bellows work great. In any case you will need lots of continuous lighting (portable LED is a good choice) to focus and preferably a ring flash to expose. If you subject is very thin and translucent, you may consider to light it from behind using a light table. Don't even think of focusing through the optical viewfinder alone. Even with split screen and micro prisms is not enough. Use the live preview, set magnification to at least 6X and then try to focus. Plenty of light helps here to get a clear image. Your DOF will be next to nothing so choose the focal plane carefully.

12-03-2011, 10:29 AM	#7
Frogfish Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Shanghai Posts: 4,490	Guy on another forum has just used a microscope objective on an RMS thread to M42 adapter for microscope objective cone on a fully extended pentax bellows to get 25:1 (focus stacked 41 shots of a fly's eye).

12-03-2011, 11:48 AM	#8
infoomatic Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 255 Original Poster	Frogfish, do you have a link? liveview is indeed great for macro photography (I am a lucky K5 owner). For the light ... Some friends suggested led lenser lights, but maybe I will try to make a diy-ring-flash with my 540fgz (like this one: DIY ring-flash for your DSLR - SlashGear) I am quite excited, can't wait to start but probably have to wait until spring when my financial situation is better and when I can go outside and hunt for subjects ;-)

12-03-2011, 12:13 PM	#9
yeatzee Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Temecula Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,675	Originally posted by Frogfish Guy on another forum has just used a microscope objective on an RMS thread to M42 adapter for microscope objective cone on a fully extended pentax bellows to get 25:1 (focus stacked 41 shots of a fly's eye). Only 41 shots, at 25:1 with an objective? Since it was a fully extended pentax bellows I assume the IQ wasn't very good? Finite objectives need a certain amount of extension to reach their designated magnification, going over or under even a little bit can drastically affect IQ in mine and other's experience. ^ that is 70 images with a 10x objective on the end of my bellows giving me ~10:1. 70 images and still missed quite a lot focus wise, 41 @ 25:1 must be crazy

12-03-2011, 01:36 PM	#10
Frogfish Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Shanghai Posts: 4,490	Originally posted by infoomatic Frogfish, do you have a link? liveview is indeed great for macro photography (I am a lucky K5 owner). For the light ... Some friends suggested led lenser lights, but maybe I will try to make a diy-ring-flash with my 540fgz (like this one: DIY ring-flash for your DSLR - SlashGear) I am quite excited, can't wait to start but probably have to wait until spring when my financial situation is better and when I can go outside and hunt for subjects ;-) Next housefly 'eye' close up - Steve's Digicams Forums Wonderful shot Tanner !

12-03-2011, 02:48 PM	#11
yeatzee Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Temecula Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,675	Originally posted by Frogfish Next housefly 'eye' close up - Steve's Digicams Forums Wonderful shot Tanner ! Using a 10x objective to reach what he assumes is 25:1 is highly unlikely, and unless im mistaken impossible with just a fully extended bellows. My best guess with that setup is that he is getting probably closer to 13:1. But than again, what do I know

12-06-2011, 08:57 AM	#12
trco Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Kidričevo, Slovenia Posts: 47	Originally posted by demp10 You will also need a very stable tripod since any movement will change your focus plane. Macro focusing rails will be very useful too. Hmmm, that's not quite true If you have up to 5 shots in stack you can handhold it - and the software is good enough to correct different focus planes. 4 handheld shots stacked together - one of them was way of from others.

12-06-2011, 01:28 PM	#13
yeatzee Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Temecula Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,675	Originally posted by trco Hmmm, that's not quite true If you have up to 5 shots in stack you can handhold it - and the software is good enough to correct different focus planes. 4 handheld shots stacked together - one of them was way of from others. my record is this image iirc, at around 20 handheld definitely not easy, but definitely possible.

12-06-2011, 02:34 PM	#14
trco Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Kidričevo, Slovenia Posts: 47	Excellent image! It looks like even I underestimated the number of handheld shots. Great job with those 20! Could you tell me which lens did you used? Pentax 50 or el-nikkor? Full set of extension tubes?

12-06-2011, 08:28 PM	#15
yeatzee Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Temecula Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,675	Originally posted by trco Excellent image! It looks like even I underestimated the number of handheld shots. Great job with those 20! Could you tell me which lens did you used? Pentax 50 or el-nikkor? Full set of extension tubes? Thanks. M 50mm F/1.7 reversed on a full set of extension tubes im assuming.