Wireless synchronizing Metz 58AF-1 and P AF-540 fgz

Oldbayrunner · 12-05-2014, 02:26 PM

Is your 540 set to SL1 or 2?

Bulldogface · 12-07-2014, 06:37 PM

Sorry, been off for weekend....
If 540 is set to SL2, neither of them would fire at manual setting, with on-board flash as controller. With SL1, at least Metz would fire while in manual...well, I guess I have to toss a towel into the ring and get myself some radio triggers, and learn to live with P-TTL until than. Thanks for input.

emalvick · 12-09-2014, 03:40 PM

So if you set both flashes to manual they don't work? I guess you did state you tried Servo mode with the Metz flash although I can't remember if that implies manual mode is used. I know that if I was using multiple flashes, I'd probably not want the PTTL mode myself.

I actually don't think your experience is that unusual. I seem to recall reading up on that before a long while ago (when I ended up buying my Metz 58 AF1), although I don't remember exactly. I actually think I had gone with the Metz because the Pentax flash had some issues with wireless and it was a bit cheaper at the time. I would assume you've tried positioning your flashes in different locations just to be certain nothing is interfering? I can't see that really being a problem based on the fact the Pentax works as expected in P-TTL or when the Metz is off.

I was going to suggest the radio triggers because I think part of the reason they're around is for situations like yours.

**RGlasel** · 12-12-2014, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by emalvick

the Pentax flash had some issues with wireless

One issue is that the built-in flash only operates in P-TTL mode, so wireless triggering using the built-in flash requires P-TTL. The Metz flashes seem to work as servo slaves (firing from detected flashes of light without using the P-TTL communications protocol), but apparently the Pentax flashes don't, and if the camera is adjusting exposure thinking that P-TTL is being used, it might not be possible to get predictable results even if an external Pentax flash could work as a servo slave. I've thought about using a cheap flash mounted on the camera hot shoe as a servo master, but haven't set aside the time to experiment with that setup.

emalvick · 12-12-2014, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by RGlasel

One issue is that the built-in flash only operates in P-TTL mode, so wireless triggering using the built-in flash requires P-TTL. The Metz flashes seem to work as servo slaves (firing from detected flashes of light without using the P-TTL communications protocol), but apparently the Pentax flashes don't, and if the camera is adjusting exposure thinking that P-TTL is being used, it might not be possible to get predictable results even if an external Pentax flash could work as a servo slave. I've thought about using a cheap flash mounted on the camera hot shoe as a servo master, but haven't set aside the time to experiment with that setup.

It does sound like it could be complicated. I've never used the servo-mode on the metz flash at all, so I don't really know. I usually just se the P-TTL. If one was using two remote flashes, I think it would be more difficult, which I think was indicated by an earlier post.

With the servo mode, I would think you might have access to the manual settings for the flash. Actually, I'm not sure why you couldn't use manual mode in the standard slave mode. While the on-board flash may be using a P-TTL protocol, it isn't that smart; it's just one way communication. It could trigger a slave flash thinking it is P-TTL but I don't know that the wireless flash cares how it's triggered. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I think I tried something similar when the K10d was my camera of choice. That camera was not reliable with PTTL, so I used manual flash modes almost all the time. The Metz made manual mode easy enough to use.

Oldbayrunner · 12-13-2014, 07:33 AM

I agree, I don't know about the Metz but I can fire my Sigma 610 super and my Af 540fgz's in both P-ttl (non hss) or manual flash mode wirelessly using my onboard flash. It sounds to me the OP is either not setting them up correctly or has a problem with the Af 540fgz.

Bulldogface · 12-15-2014, 12:26 PM

Might be, but I am seriously out of options how to set it up

i am not quiter, but i am quiting.

emalvick · 12-16-2014, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Bulldogface

Might be, but I am seriously out of options how to set it up

i am not quiter, but i am quiting.

Looking back at your original posts, it isn't fully clear to me... is the 540 on the camera?

Bulldogface · 12-16-2014, 02:56 PM

No. To avoid further confusion, here is the photodocumentation: The picture 1 is Pentax set to P-ttl, metz as slave. Both fire. Name: IMGP0827.jpg
Views: 161
Size: 79.8 KB

Name: IMGP0827.jpg
Views: 161
Size: 79.8 KB

So far so good. Picture 2 is Metz still as slave, Pentax on manual. Pentax misses this round. Name: IMGP0828.jpg
Views: 224
Size: 70.7 KB

Picture 3 is Pentax on manual, exactly as previous, untouched, but Metz is switched off. Pentax fires. Name: IMGP0830.jpg
Views: 207
Size: 70.7 KB

I read somewhere in previous comments, that Pentax uses always P-ttl with multiple wireless flashes, but failed to find this info in my booklet. Can somebody confirm this for me?

**RGlasel** · 12-16-2014, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Bulldogface

that Pentax uses always P-ttl with multiple wireless flashes, but failed to find this info in my booklet. Can somebody confirm this for me?

I don't have a K-3, but at the bottom of page 245 in my K-30 manual, it says "When using multiple external flashes or using an external flash with the built-in flash, P-TTL is used for flash control." I'm okay with P-TTL for candid shots in most situations, as long as my flash is mounted on the camera. Off the camera, I don't see much benefit, partly because the system doesn't fire reliably when handholding the flash and partly because when I go to the trouble of setting up a flash off camera in a situation where it does fire reliably, the time involved is almost the same as manually setting flashes. Wireless P-TTL using the built-in flash as controller only, seems to be more impressive in theory than in practice.

Bulldogface · 12-16-2014, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by RGlasel

"When using multiple external flashes or using an external flash with the built-in flash, P-TTL is used for flash control."

How's than possible that i can fire Pentax alone with built-in flash in manual mode? Seem like instructions are losing it here a bit....

**manishved** · 12-16-2014, 05:38 PM

Looks like this will be a great topic for a comprehensive multi-flash configuration setup wiki.

Oldbayrunner · 12-17-2014, 07:35 AM

For the 2nd photo attempt, try this with your AF 540fgz in manual mode. Set it to SL2, M, Slave & Wireless in conjunction with your Metz in Slave. Try the flash setting at wireless, if that doesn't work then try normal flash, also make sure your camera is in M mode per the instructions on page 79 in the flash manual.

emalvick · 12-17-2014, 09:37 AM

Ok... It is odd that one flash works and the other doesn't. I hope you don't give up on this only because it is an interesting topic by the fact that none of us really know what's going on, but I'm sure we'd like to. I find it odd that the flashes (running in slave mode) can be smart enough to care what another slave flash is doing when they should only be communicating with the camera. Heck does the camera even know that there are two flashes to trigger?

I would assume that once you have your flashes in manual mode that they wouldn't really care about anything other than the trigger that starts them off. Of course that is not the case as your photos show.

Bulldogface · 12-17-2014, 09:54 AM

I think I caught a trail of something here. I followed steps from Oldbayrunner, and both flashes fired up!.....on pre-flash

None was seen on picture. My build-in flash is still set as controller, since i don't want it to contribute to exposure. Than I changed build in to master, and decided to bite the bullet by directly observing flashes. Both fires up, but only light from metz is seen on picture, pentax fires on preflash. And i have two holes burned into my retina. Is there any preflash-suppression setting in pentax? And since I am feeling adventurous today, I ventured into uncharted waters by switching Metz to servo, since I wasn't sure, whenever Slave simply isn't P-ttl, non-manual system. Made no difference....

12-16-2014, 02:56 PM	#24
Bulldogface Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Akershus Photos: Gallery Posts: 69 Original Poster	No. To avoid further confusion, here is the photodocumentation: The picture 1 is Pentax set to P-ttl, metz as slave. Both fire. So far so good. Picture 2 is Metz still as slave, Pentax on manual. Pentax misses this round. Picture 3 is Pentax on manual, exactly as previous, untouched, but Metz is switched off. Pentax fires. I read somewhere in previous comments, that Pentax uses always P-ttl with multiple wireless flashes, but failed to find this info in my booklet. Can somebody confirm this for me?

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12-05-2014, 02:26 PM	#16
Oldbayrunner Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,665	Is your 540 set to SL1 or 2?

12-07-2014, 06:37 PM	#17
Bulldogface Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Akershus Photos: Gallery Posts: 69 Original Poster	Sorry, been off for weekend.... If 540 is set to SL2, neither of them would fire at manual setting, with on-board flash as controller. With SL1, at least Metz would fire while in manual...well, I guess I have to toss a towel into the ring and get myself some radio triggers, and learn to live with P-TTL until than. Thanks for input.

12-09-2014, 03:40 PM	#18
emalvick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Davis, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,642	So if you set both flashes to manual they don't work? I guess you did state you tried Servo mode with the Metz flash although I can't remember if that implies manual mode is used. I know that if I was using multiple flashes, I'd probably not want the PTTL mode myself. I actually don't think your experience is that unusual. I seem to recall reading up on that before a long while ago (when I ended up buying my Metz 58 AF1), although I don't remember exactly. I actually think I had gone with the Metz because the Pentax flash had some issues with wireless and it was a bit cheaper at the time. I would assume you've tried positioning your flashes in different locations just to be certain nothing is interfering? I can't see that really being a problem based on the fact the Pentax works as expected in P-TTL or when the Metz is off. I was going to suggest the radio triggers because I think part of the reason they're around is for situations like yours.

12-12-2014, 02:50 PM	#19
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,227	Originally posted by emalvick the Pentax flash had some issues with wireless One issue is that the built-in flash only operates in P-TTL mode, so wireless triggering using the built-in flash requires P-TTL. The Metz flashes seem to work as servo slaves (firing from detected flashes of light without using the P-TTL communications protocol), but apparently the Pentax flashes don't, and if the camera is adjusting exposure thinking that P-TTL is being used, it might not be possible to get predictable results even if an external Pentax flash could work as a servo slave. I've thought about using a cheap flash mounted on the camera hot shoe as a servo master, but haven't set aside the time to experiment with that setup.

12-12-2014, 08:19 PM	#20
emalvick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Davis, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,642	Originally posted by RGlasel One issue is that the built-in flash only operates in P-TTL mode, so wireless triggering using the built-in flash requires P-TTL. The Metz flashes seem to work as servo slaves (firing from detected flashes of light without using the P-TTL communications protocol), but apparently the Pentax flashes don't, and if the camera is adjusting exposure thinking that P-TTL is being used, it might not be possible to get predictable results even if an external Pentax flash could work as a servo slave. I've thought about using a cheap flash mounted on the camera hot shoe as a servo master, but haven't set aside the time to experiment with that setup. It does sound like it could be complicated. I've never used the servo-mode on the metz flash at all, so I don't really know. I usually just se the P-TTL. If one was using two remote flashes, I think it would be more difficult, which I think was indicated by an earlier post. With the servo mode, I would think you might have access to the manual settings for the flash. Actually, I'm not sure why you couldn't use manual mode in the standard slave mode. While the on-board flash may be using a P-TTL protocol, it isn't that smart; it's just one way communication. It could trigger a slave flash thinking it is P-TTL but I don't know that the wireless flash cares how it's triggered. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I think I tried something similar when the K10d was my camera of choice. That camera was not reliable with PTTL, so I used manual flash modes almost all the time. The Metz made manual mode easy enough to use.

12-13-2014, 07:33 AM	#21
Oldbayrunner Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,665	I agree, I don't know about the Metz but I can fire my Sigma 610 super and my Af 540fgz's in both P-ttl (non hss) or manual flash mode wirelessly using my onboard flash. It sounds to me the OP is either not setting them up correctly or has a problem with the Af 540fgz.

12-15-2014, 12:26 PM	#22
Bulldogface Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Akershus Photos: Gallery Posts: 69 Original Poster	Might be, but I am seriously out of options how to set it up i am not quiter, but i am quiting.

12-16-2014, 10:46 AM	#23
emalvick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Davis, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,642	Originally posted by Bulldogface Might be, but I am seriously out of options how to set it up i am not quiter, but i am quiting. Looking back at your original posts, it isn't fully clear to me... is the 540 on the camera?

12-16-2014, 05:11 PM	#25
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,227	Originally posted by Bulldogface that Pentax uses always P-ttl with multiple wireless flashes, but failed to find this info in my booklet. Can somebody confirm this for me? I don't have a K-3, but at the bottom of page 245 in my K-30 manual, it says "When using multiple external flashes or using an external flash with the built-in flash, P-TTL is used for flash control." I'm okay with P-TTL for candid shots in most situations, as long as my flash is mounted on the camera. Off the camera, I don't see much benefit, partly because the system doesn't fire reliably when handholding the flash and partly because when I go to the trouble of setting up a flash off camera in a situation where it does fire reliably, the time involved is almost the same as manually setting flashes. Wireless P-TTL using the built-in flash as controller only, seems to be more impressive in theory than in practice.

12-16-2014, 05:28 PM	#26
Bulldogface Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Akershus Photos: Gallery Posts: 69 Original Poster	Originally posted by RGlasel "When using multiple external flashes or using an external flash with the built-in flash, P-TTL is used for flash control." How's than possible that i can fire Pentax alone with built-in flash in manual mode? Seem like instructions are losing it here a bit....

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12-16-2014, 05:38 PM	#27
manishved Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: N. Calif Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,651	Looks like this will be a great topic for a comprehensive multi-flash configuration setup wiki.

12-17-2014, 07:35 AM	#28
Oldbayrunner Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,665	For the 2nd photo attempt, try this with your AF 540fgz in manual mode. Set it to SL2, M, Slave & Wireless in conjunction with your Metz in Slave. Try the flash setting at wireless, if that doesn't work then try normal flash, also make sure your camera is in M mode per the instructions on page 79 in the flash manual.

12-17-2014, 09:37 AM	#29
emalvick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Davis, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,642	Ok... It is odd that one flash works and the other doesn't. I hope you don't give up on this only because it is an interesting topic by the fact that none of us really know what's going on, but I'm sure we'd like to. I find it odd that the flashes (running in slave mode) can be smart enough to care what another slave flash is doing when they should only be communicating with the camera. Heck does the camera even know that there are two flashes to trigger? I would assume that once you have your flashes in manual mode that they wouldn't really care about anything other than the trigger that starts them off. Of course that is not the case as your photos show.

12-17-2014, 09:54 AM	#30
Bulldogface Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Akershus Photos: Gallery Posts: 69 Original Poster	I think I caught a trail of something here. I followed steps from Oldbayrunner, and both flashes fired up!.....on pre-flash None was seen on picture. My build-in flash is still set as controller, since i don't want it to contribute to exposure. Than I changed build in to master, and decided to bite the bullet by directly observing flashes. Both fires up, but only light from metz is seen on picture, pentax fires on preflash. And i have two holes burned into my retina. Is there any preflash-suppression setting in pentax? And since I am feeling adventurous today, I ventured into uncharted waters by switching Metz to servo, since I wasn't sure, whenever Slave simply isn't P-ttl, non-manual system. Made no difference....