[photogem]

We can't make blanket statements telling people to not use 3rd party batteries.

But we can warn them of critical facts which they don't know!

And we don't want to discourage people who "don't know what [they're] talking about" from writing equipment reviews either.

If I write a review I should know a little bit more than a little bit about the product. If I only eat junk-food I can't write a review about a top quality restaurant.

[stevebrot]

The quest is noble...




Steve

(...has had three or more third-party batteries in rotation for well over a decade...always uses the original Pentax charger and never the rapid charger that came with the batteries...never had a swollen battery and have no idea whether the middle contact is a dummy...)

[Fire Angel]

My favourite way to power my Pentax is using the AA battery adapter and rechargeable NiMH AA batteries. The JCB brand are as good as the famous Eneloops but are a fraction of the cost, and they last longer in the camera than the D-Li109 native battery. The chargers I use are all proper intelligent chargers that allow me to choose the charge current so I can charge them slowly, though the JCB batteries will tolerate the occasional fast charge like all of the better brands.

Thanks Steve for that excellent reference.

[tibbitts]

But we can warn them of critical facts which they don't know!



If I write a review I should know a little bit more than a little bit about the product. If I only eat junk-food I can't write a review about a top quality restaurant.

Your information about the shortcomings that may plague 3rd party batteries is valuable, as are the reports of other people who have had positive experiences with them.

I completely disagree about qualifications to review a product: if you've used the product you're certainly entitled to write a review. If you write a more detailed review, such as disassembling a product to better examine it as you've described, then readers are free to give your review more weight than they might another review if they feel that's justified.

[reh321]

Although an older thread, this is still important:

The only battery one should use are the original Pentax versions.
In Japan both, the D-LI109 and the D-LI90 (and its equivalents by Pentax) have now 4 contacts:
2 contacts for the cells themselves
1 contact T for the temperature sensor so the charger can switch off if the temperature is too high
1 contact D (possibly Digital-Data-control)
This 4-th contact is law in Japan since Nov. 2011 and all batteries and chargers sold in Japan have to have them since Jan. 2012


The D-LI109 fell under that law and we only know it like that but the D-LI90 first had just the T contact.

Now many have heard how devastating the explosion of just a tiny Li-Ion in a mobile phone can be.
Even if it just explodes within your camera your Pentax will be finished.

I had several 3-rd party D-LI109- and D-LI90 clones which did swell. That is already a very bad sign.

Before I understood about those differences I purchased as well 3-rd party batteries and a friend brought me Wasabi's from USA.

None over a longer period could compete with the original Pentax batteries
and if one uses the clone chargers, of course it feels nice because they are quick chargers.

But if you have a close look: there are only 2 contacs on the chargers!
They lack the important security shut-off if the temperature sensor (which is only inside orig. Pentax Li-Ions since the K7 and K-r)

but instead those clone batteries CHEAT by using a resistor instead of the temperature sensor, here with a d-LI90-clone:


and here with a D-LI109-clone:



So taking those facts into account:

If you want to risk your Pentax or if you want to risk your house or your face, go ahead and use those clones:
Lithium Ion Battery Explosion - YouTube

But better don't write reviews if you don't know what you are talking about!

The price of orig. Pentax accessoirs is high, I agree.
But usually we get those chargers and batteries with our cameras.

At least with Pentax you get original OEM quality!
If you bring your car to the garage and have them change your break-disc, exhaust or other parts and you don't know much about it they often install cheapest China-stuff but charge OEM prices.

His post is a statement of experience - not a review - as is yours a statement of your experience.
There is nothing wrong with telling us about experience.
My experience is that I get more life from Pentax - they also cost more.
Every week I charge the one in my KP and examine it for swelling.

[Rondec]

The life span of Pentax brand batteries seems to be longer, based on my limited experience. I also found that the Pentax batteries seemed to do better under load (shooting video) and in cold situations. Otherwise, they both seemed adequate.

[photogem]

My favourite way to power my Pentax is using the AA battery adapter and rechargeable NiMH AA batteries.

The AA-adapter only works for a limited number of Pentax DSLR's: K-r, K30, K500 and K50!
It was first introduced for the K-r because the powersupply in the K-r was taken over by the K-x and not yet alright for Li-Ions!
The K-r often produced mirror-flop due to that problem, there was nothing that could change that.

The JCB brand are as good as the famous Eneloops ...

On paper yes, in reality not at all but quite the opposite.
JCD does not produce batteries but has them made in China.
That wouldn't be a problem but to compare them to Eneloops is kind of comparing a K-x with the K5IIs or the K3.

The main reasons very much this one:

...but are a fraction of the cost...

because they are cheap made and if left for a longer time discharge very quickly.
They can be charged 500x which is way less than Eneloops who can be charged 2100x so your argument is just very relative.

JCB's last longer in the camera than the D-Li109 native battery.

Nothing new:
D-LI109 = 1050mA
Standard cheap NiMH = 1200mA

Good Eneloops 2500mA so almost 2,5x longer lasting.



NiMH's also can be better in cold temperatures.

Nevertheless, Eneloops and those built by Panasonic or Fujitsu can be charged 2100x and hold their capacity with almost negligible loss for a very long time.
And they were the only ones Ricoh recommended for the K-x. The reason was the discharge-curve explained HERE

And yet, no K1/7/5/3/70/KP/K-S1/K-S2 can use them.
Thus:
This thread is not about NiMH's but 3-rd party Li-Ions!

The chargers I use are all proper intelligent chargers that allow me to choose the charge current so I can charge them slowly, though the JCB batteries will tolerate the occasional fast charge like all of the better brands.

Thats an intelligent approach but charge-current isn't all.


One needs to know quite a bit more about chargers and how to charge which NiMH!
Because Eneloops and Fujitsu NiMH's don't discharge so strongly as others they are more sensitive to how to charge them. The react more sensitive to overcharge
and thus one has to be careful not to charge them too fast i.e. with a too high current. The voltage-drop during the end of the charge is lower than with "normal cheap" NiMH's.
Also one needs to know how the charger measures, and does it shut-off for each cell when full or change to a different mode?
Such as the SkyRC MC3000 or a few others.
Maybe too high tech for most and too expensive but a good BC700 is cheap and good as well.

[Fire Angel]

The life span of Pentax brand batteries seems to be longer, based on my limited experience. I also found that the Pentax batteries seemed to do better under load (shooting video) and in cold situations. Otherwise, they both seemed adequate.

That's interesting. It seems that the experiences of people using the clone batteries is very mixed. However generally unless you buy the really cheap ones their performance is adequate and at a fraction of the price of the Pentax batteries. I did have an Ex-Pro D-Li109 clone at one time, what happened to it I don't know but I suspect it was left on a tour boat travelling the Thames. It seemed to at least match the Pentax original that came with my Kr though I never tried it in cold weather.


My preference for rechargeable AA batteries with decent intelligent chargers is partly due to the number of other devices I have that take AA batteries, like my flashguns, digital audio recorder, a few flashlights etc. Using them with an adapter in my DSLR has improved the battery life as well as saving a lot of money compared to buying spare Pentax D-Li109 batteries. Since I am going to buy AA rechargeables anyway getting a few more for the camera seems sensible. The Kr is old but as it still works flawlessly I have no intention of replacing it yet. When I do replace it my hope was to get another Pentax camera that can use AA batteries though it seems they are slowly closing down that option.

[Rondec]

That's interesting. It seems that the experiences of people using the clone batteries is very mixed. However generally unless you buy the really cheap ones their performance is adequate and at a fraction of the price of the Pentax batteries. I did have an Ex-Pro D-Li109 clone at one time, what happened to it I don't know but I suspect it was left on a tour boat travelling the Thames. It seemed to at least match the Pentax original that came with my Kr though I never tried it in cold weather.


My preference for rechargeable AA batteries with decent intelligent chargers is partly due to the number of other devices I have that take AA batteries, like my flashguns, digital audio recorder, a few flashlights etc. Using them with an adapter in my DSLR has improved the battery life as well as saving a lot of money compared to buying spare Pentax D-Li109 batteries. Since I am going to buy AA rechargeables anyway getting a few more for the camera seems sensible. The Kr is old but as it still works flawlessly I have no intention of replacing it yet. When I do replace it my hope was to get another Pentax camera that can use AA batteries though it seems they are slowly closing down that option.

The cameras I currently own are the K-1, K-1 II, K-01, and K-3 all of which don't use AA batteries. I think the K-3 can in a grip, but I don't usually shoot with a grip.

[photogem]

But better don't write reviews if you don't know what you are talking about!

His post is a statement of experience - not a review - as is yours a statement of your experience.
There is nothing wrong with telling us about experience.
My experience is that I get more life from Pentax - they also cost more.
Every week I charge the one in my KP and examine it for swelling.

Better to check more deeply
He wrote a very negative review based on poor knowledge:
Pentax D-LI109 Rechargeable Battery reviews - Pentax Camera Accessory Review Database

[photogem]

That's interesting. It seems that the experiences of people using the clone batteries is very mixed.
However generally unless you buy the really cheap ones their performance is adequate....

Thats not correct and you lack experience for being able to state this!

For such a statement having any valid content you need to test/use quite a lot of 3-rd party batteries and check them against the original Pentax.

I did so over years.

You had 1 single 3-rd party and you lost it:

.. and at a fraction of the price of the Pentax batteries. I did have an Ex-Pro D-Li109 clone at one time, what happened to it I don't know but I suspect it was left on a tour boat travelling the Thames. It seemed to at least match the Pentax original that came with my Kr though I never tried it in cold weather.

It seemed ... a very reliable statement?
As you lost it there is no experience on long-term reliability.

Plus as you made it very clear you prefer rechargeable AA's.
This means you might have even forgotten to charge your D-LI109 regularely which then could decharge too much and thus suffer.

Wasabi in USA and Blue-Max Gold Edition D-LI90's claimed at times to use Japan-cells. I guess they did long time agao but soon changed that.

Now the whole battery of both are made in China and use chinese cells.

A close look onto the chargers will show: Only 2 contacts.
So no temperature sensor inside the battery but just the resistor to cheat the original Pentax charger which would not charger otherwise.

I have taken enough of them apart and have enough long-time experience.

The Blue-Max Gold's were the best of the 3-rd party clones but only up to 2 years
And yet: They never had their claimed 2050mA capacity, they didn't last longer than an orig. Pentax!

The K-r is old but as it still works flawlessly I have no intention of replacing it yet. When I do replace it my hope was to get another Pentax camera that can use AA batteries though it seems they are slowly closing down that option.

They are not slowly closing down that option but have done so abruptly after the K50.
The K-S1 was introduced 2014, that is over 7 years ago.

Not even modern Battery-grips won't allow AA's anymore, the D-BG6 was the last one.

So a used K30 or 50 will be the only one and you can use the solenoid of your K-r if that fails.

Cold weather indeed is the big pro for good AA's but longterm only for those manufactured by Panasonic or Fujitsu.
I lived for 3 years right in the Alps and experienced sometimes -32°C which is 89,6°F.

But clone 3.rd party Li-Ions often show their weakness when used below +5°C!

[reh321]

Better to check more deeply
He wrote a very negative review based on poor knowledge:
Pentax D-LI109 Rechargeable Battery reviews - Pentax Camera Accessory Review Database

I was responding to your response to a post. Perhaps in your country, courts are allowed to discuss matters "not in evidence" but not in the U.S.
His comments in this thread talk about his experience, and should be what this thread talks about.

added: this thread began as a discussion of experience - not a discussion of reviews or theory.
To suddenly pull in reviews is not relevant.

[UncleVanya]

I’ve used third party batteries on a large number of camera and phone systems. The number that ever swelled is three. But the actual original equipment number is two.

I will also point out that I have never found fresh 3rd party batteries to exceed the capacity of original equipment batteries despite labeling. I have seen original equipment batteries retain charge capacity over time more than 3rd party most of the time, but there have been a few instances where the original batteries died long before the 3rd party batteries. These are not common. (This last point may seem contradictory, but I’m referring to long term use and ability to take a charge cycle over time as the battery ages not new)

In recent memory I’ve used 3rd party batteries in:

K-3, KP, GX8, GX1, Sony A7RII & A7RIII

So while I understand the concerns I’ve also read the data on failures and I think the statistics don’t indicate this is a high risk at all.

[Fire Angel]

I’ve used third party batteries on a large number of camera and phone systems. The number that ever swelled is three. But the actual original equipment number is two.

I will also point out that I have never found fresh 3rd party batteries to exceed the capacity of original equipment batteries despite labeling. I have seen original equipment batteries retain charge capacity over time more than 3rd party most of the time, but there have been a few instances where the original batteries died long before the 3rd party batteries. These are not common. (This last point may seem contradictory, but I’m referring to long term use and ability to take a charge cycle over time as the battery ages not new)

In recent memory I’ve used 3rd party batteries in:

K-3, KP, GX8, GX1, Sony A7RII & A7RIII

So while I understand the concerns I’ve also read the data on failures and I think the statistics don’t indicate this is a high risk at all.

I have to agree. I have seen a few cases where people bought clone batteries that either failed very quickly or didn't ever work properly, so they were wasted money. I have never seen one damage the equipment though. One Sony video camera used for an advertisement shoot I helped on seemed to have only clone batteries in its box, and it performed pretty much as normal throughout the shoot. The owner of the camera is still using it now, roughly three years after that shoot. If some of the batteries have died (which is likely) he is still ahead financially if he bought more of the clones rather than the very expensive Sony batteries. Plus if he wants one of those Sony batteries now it's unlikely he will be able to find a new one anywhere, so clones or used are his only options. The used ones aren't likely to perform as well as a new clone battery.

[builttospill]

I've had both good and bad camera brand batteries and third-party batteries. When I purchased my K-1 one Pentax battery had three contacts, the other Pentax battery had four.


Last year my KP had two Pentax batteries swell. One was inside the camera and it took a lot of effort to get the battery out. I have three or four third-party batteries for my Canon DSLRs which need replacing because of swelling.

I'm sure it was a trip of a lifetime and therefore well-documented. Obviously your battery and other gear performed admirably.
But when I think of having to pore over 5000 digital images I am again reminded how thankful I am to remain a film photographer.

Speaking of film cameras, I'd rather use SR44 batteries in them but it's cheaper and easier to find LR44 batteries. I guess that's not too different from using third-party batteries in a DSLR.