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10-16-2018, 04:46 AM   #1
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The importance of a hood with a ND Filter or CPL?

I'm looking to replace the built in hoods of both my FA77 and HD DA 35 Macro. It's primarily to do with the fact that both of these primes sit in my padded lens pouches that exist on my belt, and I place them in face down with the rear element visible if looking down at them. The collapsible hoods... well... they collapse, thereby bringing the front element closer to the bottom of the pouch and risking potential damage. A firm hood provides protection as well as keeping a better distance to the front element, and should the new hood I am about to invest in take any punches, at least the built in hood remains intact (and helps keep the resale value a tad higher).

But what to get... because I also have a 52mm CPL and ND filters to boot, and it's nice to use those on any lens that could take them. So then... the FA77 and HD DA 35 Macro are both 49mm threads, I was simply thinking of just doing a kinda 'step up ring' lens hood, with the intention of the filters to just go on the end of the hood when I want either a CPL or ND for the shot. But by doing this the the system goes Front Element>Hood>Filter, not Front Element>Filter>Hood as most set ups probably exist...

So then.. I am pondering if this is a problem with ND filters and CPL, do we actually care that the hood comes before the filter? Does it matter? I just think I might get a little 'over' undoing the hood everytime I want to add a filter to the equation. Typically for me, the filter would be used for the shot, then taken off and the lens can be placed back into the lens pouch face down again (ie I wouldn't be having the filters facing down into the lens pouches ahead of the hoods).

The kind of hoods I really like are the twist lock type, the ones like what the DFA 100 Macro has etc. Can you get such a hood for lenses that are not 'out of the box' set up for this? Something like perhaps a ring that you place onto the thread of the lens first which then can accept the lens hood via a clicking mechanism?

I once owned this lens hood;

JJC Lens Hood Square 49mm Shade for Pentax smc DA 35mm f/2.4 AL FA 50mm(PH-SA49) | eBay



It was working pretty well, quick and easy clipping on and off, however one day as I was placing the lens back into the pouch I clipped the hood on the rim of the pouch entrance and it snapped one of the plastic thingy gripper bits clean off, so that was the end of that. I guess they're not expensive but I just wondered if there was something better than this.

I have also tried hoods like this; JJC LS-49 (49mm) Universal flower S (end 10/22/2019 5:16 PM)

and found the threads to be quite poor quality and the ring thingy slipped making the petal orientation very hard to achieve... not overly impressed with that design either.

So yeah... how important are hoods to be covering over ND and CPL filters? I mean I think most times I see some video showing some user with a cpl they're quite often hoodless with it anyway.

TIA!


Bruce

10-16-2018, 04:55 AM - 2 Likes   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I'm looking to replace the built in hoods of both my FA77 and HD DA 35 Macro. It's primarily to do with the fact that both of these primes sit in my padded lens pouches that exist on my belt, and I place them in face down with the rear element visible if looking down at them. The collapsible hoods... well... they collapse, thereby bringing the front element closer to the bottom of the pouch and risking potential damage. A firm hood provides protection as well as keeping a better distance to the front element, and should the new hood I am about to invest in take any punches, at least the built in hood remains intact (and helps keep the resale value a tad higher)...

lens cap?
10-16-2018, 05:11 AM   #3
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You might just go: step up ring, filter, clip on hood.

http://nikomat.org/lens/hiyoke.html

I recommend looking at the metal clip on Nikon hoods - the HS series clip on and off. The HS6 may be too short to be effective the hs4 looks good to me. The extra width will offset the longer hood possibly.
10-16-2018, 05:52 AM - 1 Like   #4
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Overall, hoods are important even with a CPL and ND filter to prevent flare. Sometimes hoods don't do much if the lighting is 100% from behind the lens (e.g., on-camera-flash in dark interiors). But if the sun, room lights, or flash set-up is in front of the lens, then a good petal hood or rectangular hood can prevent very bright stray light from entering the optics (filter + lens) and fogging or flaring.

Unless you use a lenscap, I would not put a hoodless lens with a filter in a bag. Dirt and grease in the bag will get on the filter surface and all your pictures will be taken looking through the mess.

Lens-filter-hood is probably the way to go but you might need to use the step-up ring that you mentioned and a larger hood to prevent vignetting especially on the 35.

Lens-hood-filter would require a lens cap on the filter. Also, any light gaps between the hood and filter could cause flare from light entering the hood-filter gap, bouncing off the interior surface of the filter and entering the lens.

10-16-2018, 04:10 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by pepperberry farm Quote
lens cap?
The Limited lens caps are gorgeous, if you're anything like me you fumble and drop them, I don't want them chipped and damaged, they're too lovely for that ill treatment (and a good original lens cap free from defects always helps the resale of the lens I find).

But really it's my fault for not properly explaining.

I shoot professionally also, and when shooting primes you need a very fluid lens exchange as possible. When I get to the location I tend to take off all lens caps, front and rear and store them away for the duration of the shoot. It goes without saying that once the job is over the elements get their caps back on. I have a rocket blower also attached to my belt and if need be I can blast a couple of squeezes of air onto the elements if I see they are picking up fibres (but they never really do, not with these style of pouches, they're the ones with padded plasticy lining, not the fabric kind, hairs and dir don't really 'collect' anywhere on this kind of pouch lining).
It's simply quicker to ditch all caps and blast some air at them as you're making the switch than dealing with a cap. Oh... and I also typically have UV filters on at all times, just for that extra added protection to the front element.


QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
You might just go: step up ring, filter, clip on hood.

Hood List for Nikkor Lenses

I recommend looking at the metal clip on Nikon hoods - the HS series clip on and off. The HS6 may be too short to be effective the hs4 looks good to me. The extra width will offset the longer hood possibly.
Thanks Uncle, I'll do that.

Something I forgot to say is... I plan on getting that 'Roundflash' softbox you pointed me in the direction of, however if you look at the videos demonstrating it, it typically has larger lenses going through, like 24-70's etc. I would be using my FA77 predominately and my HD DA 35. I think the success of this working with my smaller primes is to get a more 'hourglass' shape to my lens and lens hood flow, something for the 'ropes' of the roundflash to really grab onto. A clip on one also suggests the strain of the of the strings may ping a hood off lol. Hence I was looking for something with a stronger locking mechanism etc. I'll look into those Nikon hoods tho.

My issue is I think I'd like quite deep and larger hoods on the HD DA 35 and FA77, however I don't want to obviously contribute vignetting with them. The FA 77 clearly has more leeway in terms of length of hood, the 35 not so much. Oh how to know if a certain hood is gonna be an issue or not (because the built in hoods are utterly tiny, they just come out by about a centimetre!)

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Overall, hoods are important even with a CPL and ND filter to prevent flare. Sometimes hoods don't do much if the lighting is 100% from behind the lens (e.g., on-camera-flash in dark interiors). But if the sun, room lights, or flash set-up is in front of the lens, then a good petal hood or rectangular hood can prevent very bright stray light from entering the optics (filter + lens) and fogging or flaring.

Unless you use a lenscap, I would not put a hoodless lens with a filter in a bag. Dirt and grease in the bag will get on the filter surface and all your pictures will be taken looking through the mess.

Lens-filter-hood is probably the way to go but you might need to use the step-up ring that you mentioned and a larger hood to prevent vignetting especially on the 35.

Lens-hood-filter would require a lens cap on the filter. Also, any light gaps between the hood and filter could cause flare from light entering the hood-filter gap, bouncing off the interior surface of the filter and entering the lens.
Yeah nah I don't do that. Currently I am lenscapping, because the FA77 and DA 35 hoods are so inadequate for this purpose, hence the post, I want to hood up which gives the clearance needed. I've done this countless times before, with a Samyang 85 (large hood), the DFA 100, (long hood) etc, the elements stay completely safe, just requiring a blast of air from a rocket blower occasionally. I also shoot wide open a lot, which minimises any spec that the filter or element may have picked up along the way.

Yeah as mentioned above, when using a filter it would typically go on for the shot, then come off. I wouldn't store the lens>hood>filter in a pouch like that without a cap on the end as you say.

But I'm getting the general jist it's best to do Lens>Filter>Hood, so I'll try and work on that. First I'll do Lens>49-52mm step up ring and see if I can then find a hood that's better than a flakey plastic clip on thing to go on the 52mm, and at least make sure of the hood is removable then whatever the hood docked onto terminates at a 52mm for the filter. Whether the hood can redock once the filters on.. I dunno.. I'm just not sure I need hoods that much when using cpl and nd's in an already fairly dim waterfall location...

---------- Post added 10-17-18 at 10:43 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
You might just go: step up ring, filter, clip on hood.

Hood List for Nikkor Lenses

I recommend looking at the metal clip on Nikon hoods - the HS series clip on and off. The HS6 may be too short to be effective the hs4 looks good to me. The extra width will offset the longer hood possibly.
I don't understand at all how these clip on hoods actually work and dock onto the lens. The only video I found was this one;


It shows the fella squeezing the shiny protruding metal 'buttons' which kinda narrows the passage way, I don't get at all how this then allows the hood to clip into a step up ring or something... :/
10-16-2018, 05:34 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I'm just not sure I need hoods that much when using cpl and nd's in an already fairly dim waterfall location...
Flare is caused by the relative brightness of the main subject of the scene and any light sources in the frame or out of the frame. The sun and sky may be incredibly bright relative to the dark waterfall subject matter. Even a landscape lit by a full moon will flare as bad as a sunlit scene if the moon is shining into an unhooded lens.

Although a CPL or ND reduces the absolute brightness of the scene, it does not change the relative brightness. If anything adding a CPL or ND can worsen flare because it adds another optical element, two more dirt-encrusted optical surface layers, and another reflective surface to the optical system.

That said, if the sun is behind the camera and there's very little sky visible between near the frame to overhead, then a hood may not be needed.
10-16-2018, 06:27 PM   #7
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I have a similar set-up, with 52mm filters, limited lenses, and generally 49mm filter threads. I ended up buying a 49-52 step-up ring, and both 49mm and 52mm rubber 3-stage collapsable hoods.

For most purposes, I use either the limited lens' own hood, or the 49mm rubber hood for the non-limited lenses. For filter use, I've experimented with the order in which I place the filter and hood, and I've found that putting the filter directly onto the lens, and the 52mm hood onto the filter works best.

With the CPL, you get the benefit of a larger area to grip to turn the filter, and more importantly it's much easier to remove the filter from the back of the hood rather than the front (I have a rubber band and filter wrenches on hand just in case.)

Though swapping filters on and off may be more time consuming, I rationalise by remembering that the filter-use process is always complicated if you believe you need to adjust for every shot anyway. Possible compromises could be to simply not use a hood along with a filter, or to get a set of filter stack caps, so you can leave the filter semi-permanently attached to the back of the hood, and simply cap both side of the combination when not in use.

Actually, I like that last idea and might do that myself.

10-16-2018, 07:28 PM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I don't understand at all how these clip on hoods actually work and dock onto the lens. The only video I found was this one;

It shows the fella squeezing the shiny protruding metal 'buttons' which kinda narrows the passage way, I don't get at all how this then allows the hood to clip into a step up ring or something... :/
This isn't hard to me but I've been using the darn hoods for 40 years. The oldest style has a pair of silver buttons one on each side. If you look at the hood without it attached you will find a METAL "threaded" ring with a gap that is attached at one side strongly to the hood. Pressing the two buttons compresses the ring which allows it to slip inside a ring of 52mm in diameter. Releasing it allows the threads to line up in the grooves in the ring as though you had screwed it in. The grabbing power varies but these are really strong compared to the plastic rectangular JJC hood I have for Pentax 35mm lens. The newer style has a single sliding button that accomplishes the same thing - the motion is more of a wedge moving back and forth than buttons pressing in but the effect is the same the ring gets compressed and narrower and then slips inside the filter ring.

SO you put a step up ring on - going from 49 to 52. You then put a filter in place. (Or not) and then you use the spring clip ring on the hood to mount on and off quickly with ease. As for the Ring shaped diffuser - the weight will be key. I am unclear what it weighs but the Nikon hoods are very sturdy compared to many - even with the clip on effect. Remember also that wider hoods can be longer without interfering with the optical image. A simple way to test is to shoot blue sky at wide open and stopped down and see if you see any vignetting.
10-16-2018, 10:42 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
This isn't hard to me but I've been using the darn hoods for 40 years. The oldest style has a pair of silver buttons one on each side. If you look at the hood without it attached you will find a METAL "threaded" ring with a gap that is attached at one side strongly to the hood. Pressing the two buttons compresses the ring which allows it to slip inside a ring of 52mm in diameter. Releasing it allows the threads to line up in the grooves in the ring as though you had screwed it in. The grabbing power varies but these are really strong compared to the plastic rectangular JJC hood I have for Pentax 35mm lens. The newer style has a single sliding button that accomplishes the same thing - the motion is more of a wedge moving back and forth than buttons pressing in but the effect is the same the ring gets compressed and narrower and then slips inside the filter ring.

SO you put a step up ring on - going from 49 to 52. You then put a filter in place. (Or not) and then you use the spring clip ring on the hood to mount on and off quickly with ease. As for the Ring shaped diffuser - the weight will be key. I am unclear what it weighs but the Nikon hoods are very sturdy compared to many - even with the clip on effect. Remember also that wider hoods can be longer without interfering with the optical image. A simple way to test is to shoot blue sky at wide open and stopped down and see if you see any vignetting.
Thanks for that Uncle.

I think I will order these two, and just put up with the screwing on/off of the thread, as I am concerned that the roundflash would perhaps ping them off.

For the FA77; Sensei PRO 52mm Aluminum Lens Hood LHM-52 B&H Photo Video

For the HD DA 35; Sensei PRO 52mm Wide Angle Aluminum Lens Hood LHM-W52 B&H Photo
10-17-2018, 05:45 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Thanks for that Uncle.

I think I will order these two, and just put up with the screwing on/off of the thread, as I am concerned that the roundflash would perhaps ping them off.

For the FA77; Sensei PRO 52mm Aluminum Lens Hood LHM-52 B&H Photo Video

For the HD DA 35; Sensei PRO 52mm Wide Angle Aluminum Lens Hood LHM-W52 B&H Photo
Before you order them you could mock them up using posterboard and verify that they aren't likely to vignette or try a paper hood from here: Customized digital lens hoods. just add a little length for the space the filter will occupy to be sure of the results.
10-17-2018, 01:02 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Before you order them you could mock them up using posterboard and verify that they aren't likely to vignette or try a paper hood from here: Customized digital lens hoods. just add a little length for the space the filter will occupy to be sure of the results.
Thanks for that! Cool resource!
10-17-2018, 06:48 PM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I think I will order these two, and just put up with the screwing on/off of the thread, as I am concerned that the roundflash would perhaps ping them off.
I am a real fan of metal screw-on hoods. The Sensei Pro selection at B&H are quite good as are the ones I get from an eBay merchant (heavystars). I also keep a store of 58mm pinch caps to put over the end to keep dust out. FWIW, I have the 52mm 49mm wide-angle version and it works well with my 24mm 28mm Tamron 02B.

As for whether they make sense when using a filter, the answer is yes. The job of the hood is to keep errant light from the surface of the front element even when that glass is a filter. Sources of errant light are numerous when shooting exteriors and even more so when doing flash work inside. The filter thickness is usually not a huge consideration unless the front element is already deeply inset.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 10-17-2018 at 07:14 PM.
10-17-2018, 07:29 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I am a real fan of metal screw-on hoods. The Sensei Pro selection at B&H are quite good as are the ones I get from an eBay merchant (heavystars). I also keep a store of 58mm pinch caps to put over the end to keep dust out. FWIW, I have the 52mm 49mm wide-angle version and it works well with my 24mm 28mm Tamron 02B.

As for whether they make sense when using a filter, the answer is yes. The job of the hood is to keep errant light from the surface of the front element even when that glass is a filter. Sources of errant light are numerous when shooting exteriors and even more so when doing flash work inside. The filter thickness is usually not a huge consideration unless the front element is already deeply inset.


Steve
Thanks Steve.
11-04-2018, 03:01 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
But I'm getting the general jist it's best to do Lens>Filter>Hood, so I'll try and work on that.
First I'll do Lens>49-52mm step up ring and see if I can then find a hood that's better than a flakey plastic clip on thing to go on the 52mm, and at least make sure of the hood is removable then whatever the hood docked onto terminates at a 52mm for the filter.
Whether the hood can redock once the filters on.. I dunno..
I'm just not sure I need hoods that much when using cpl and nd's in an already fairly dim waterfall location...
If you select your lenses by the option for the PL filter window, you can even keep the original bajonet mount lens hood on during the shoot and use filters.
Lens hood with filter window - PentaxForums.com
Wide Angle Lenses That Still Have Threads - PentaxForums.com

Hoods are always an protection for the front lens.
11-12-2018, 12:05 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I am pondering if this is a problem with ND filters and CPL, do we actually care that the hood comes before the filter?

Does it matter?
The kind of hoods I really like are the twist lock type, the ones like what the DFA 100 Macro has etc. Can you get such a hood for lenses that are not 'out of the box' set up for this?

Something like perhaps a ring that you place onto the thread of the lens first which then can accept the lens hood via a clicking mechanism?
how important are hoods to be covering over ND and CPL filters?
So how about your choice for lenses with bajonet-type mount like the D FA* 50mm 1.4?
Or about the F* lenses with integrated retractable lens hood?
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