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12-14-2019, 11:17 PM - 1 Like   #16
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Interesting info everyone. Just to be clear I'm not storing a shoot on SD cards. I load a day's shooting onto the external hard drives and format the card in camera.

The class SD cards are compilations of many images over the years. I convert the Raw images to jpeg. Found out the hard way that files that have been in a computer and saved as jpeg do not playback in camera. Something changes and the camera can't read them. Years ago the Pentax rep pointed me to an AC/Dsee program that saves files in the correct format for cameras to display. Wonder if any other program offers this feature?

My Raw files are saved to external hard drives. When full, I buy a hard drive with twice the memory and copy the full hard drive to it. This way I have multiple copies of everything and access to all my images via 1 drive.

Thanks,
barondla

12-15-2019, 02:57 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by automorphism Quote
No consumer-grade storage is long term. Even CD/DVD media degrades over time, although commercially-pressed ones do last a very long time. Don't expect anything -- hard drives, USB keys, XQD cards -- to last. Instead, create multiple backups, test them and replace them as soon as they fail. This includes at least one off-site backup such as cloud storage or a couple hard drives in an external location such as a safety deposit box or self storage.

There are anomalies like glass-etched storage designed to last longer, but those are impractical for consumer use.

In fact, in terms of degradation, the most durable storage medium is actually print. Print your best shots with quality printing and they will most surely outlast any digital storage medium.
Ref "consumer-grade storage": I managed to buy 4 very lightly used "enterprise-grade" 3TB drives from a local guy on the UK AV Forums site for around 50-60 each (new price is about 200+ each!) , and they were fitted into a USB3 4-bay unit attached to a brand-new Synology NAS that went down to become the garage "off-site" storage.

All went well for 6 months and then "something" went wrong and I'm now getting to the end of rebuilding the whole shebang (all the data was also "safely" stored on the disks on another 4-bay unit in the house ) ! Don't think it was the enterprise drives, but the 4-bay unit, that "went" wrong" as the data on the disks seemed to have been mostly undamaged - I have 3 of the same model of 4-bay unit, and have found that some of the connectors on the internal PWB/PCB that can get "flakey", but hope that the several "complete" rebuilds, with contact cleaning and lubrication, thereof have solved the issues, but "time will tell".
12-15-2019, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilmfan Quote
I use each SDHC card (32gb) once until nearly full (max 30gb - about 1200 RAW images), it is then replaced with a fresh one (the things are cheap enough). Images are backed up after each outing to an internal drive, then when card is 'full' (see earlier) entire card backed up to two external drives, and original card stored - just as I used to do with film negatives in the 'old days'. To my mind, it is a false economy to format and re-use cards (and I know others will disagree !), but this system has worked for me for the past five years, since I got my K20D. YMMV
Everyone has their own way of doing things so I won't argue your rationale here but I am interested in how well the Sdcards that you have had stored so far for several years are holding their data. Have you gne back to the earlier ones and tried to access the data on them.? By design these are not meant to be a permanent archival system so I would expect degradation to start happening at some point. I have had issues where linux operating systems I installed on Usb flash drives corrupted over time.

AL
12-15-2019, 04:07 AM   #19
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Another thing for people to remember about "storage" media - if you bought a new laptop (or even a desktop/tower PC) in the last couple of years, the main on-board storage was almost certainly an SSD as HDDs (and DVD/CD drives) in most of them are "history" (and there isn't space inside to fit them - that's why most newish laptops are so light!)

12-15-2019, 06:56 AM - 2 Likes   #20
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Just a comment on backups based on my experiences as a disaster recovery specialist back in the day.

A backup which hasn't been tested isn't really a backup because the odds are it will fail when you need it most.

Almost all the customers who went to their DR site with what they assured me was a complete set of backups
found either there was something missing or the media was in some format which rendered it unreadable.

Of course this was mainframe stuff but I think the basic message is valid, try your backup out regularly whether
it be cloud or local, NAS or DVD, simple copy or special software.
It can all go wrong and you don't want to find out when you're desperately trying to recover some cherished image!

For a horror story read Bob Catmull's book about the early days of Pixar when they lost the most advanced working copy
of Toy Story and found that their backup regime hadn't been working for a while. They only managed to recover
because an employee had taken to copy to work on at home.
12-15-2019, 08:44 AM - 2 Likes   #21
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My photos are backed-up in "compressed" form via Acronis True Image on USB drives attached to 2 separate NAS boxes, and also in "uncompressed" form on 2 other USB drives on the same 2x NAS - as well on the 2x RAID-configured internal drives on one of those NAS, and on a separate USB drive attached to the laptop!! Probably could "do better" but can't afford that!

And all the shots are readable because I've tried !!
12-15-2019, 08:51 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by roberrl Quote
Just a comment on backups based on my experiences as a disaster recovery specialist back in the day.

A backup which hasn't been tested isn't really a backup because the odds are it will fail when you need it most.

Almost all the customers who went to their DR site with what they assured me was a complete set of backups
found either there was something missing or the media was in some format which rendered it unreadable.

Of course this was mainframe stuff but I think the basic message is valid, try your backup out regularly whether
it be cloud or local, NAS or DVD, simple copy or special software.
It can all go wrong and you don't want to find out when you're desperately trying to recover some cherished image!

For a horror story read Bob Catmull's book about the early days of Pixar when they lost the most advanced working copy
of Toy Story and found that their backup regime hadn't been working for a while. They only managed to recover
because an employee had taken to copy to work on at home.
Wow! When a company with the expertise of Pixar struggles with back ups, it really shows how difficult it is to protect information. This story also points out my friend's advice is correct. He used to set up back up equipment and plans for USA city governments, hospitals, and banks. He says if all your back ups are at the same location, you don't have back up. Any fire, flood, hurricane, etc. can wipe out everything. Keep copies off site.

Thanks,
barondla
12-15-2019, 10:48 AM - 2 Likes   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
... Any fire, flood, hurricane, etc. can wipe out everything. Keep copies off site. Thanks,
barondla
I agree but it often not easy for "home users" - certainly, in my case, I don't have anyone/anywhere "really off-site" to use in that manner - so have had to compromise and locate the "off-site" element in my detached garage about 40ft from the house, and with a PLC link between it and the house LAN.

That worked fine until a few weeks ago when BOTH NAS-based backup systems went "wrong" and wouldn't recognise the attached USB storage boxes, but I haven't actually lost any data or photos due the at-least duplicated/triplicated nature of the storage drives - now, in the hopefully "final" stages of fixing those issues.

12-15-2019, 11:09 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeallen01 Quote
I agree but it often not easy for "home users" - certainly, in my case, I don't have anyone/anywhere "really off-site" to use in that manner - so have had to compromise and locate the "off-site" element in my detached garage about 40ft from the house, and with a PLC link between it and the house LAN.

That worked fine until a few weeks ago when BOTH NAS-based backup systems went "wrong" and wouldn't recognise the attached USB storage boxes, but I haven't actually lost any data or photos due the at-least duplicated/triplicated nature of the storage drives - now, in the hopefully "final" stages of fixing those issues.
Glad you still have data intact. Never said it would be easy! It's a royal pain. Some people have "photo buddies" and they keep a hard drive of each other's at their home. Every month they meet and update drives. It also works to keep a spare hard drive in a bank safety deposit box, at work, or storage facility. There are also extreme external hard drives that live through fire and flood.
IoSafe goes extreme with disaster-proof hard drive - CNET

My friend also said all hard drives shouldn't be hooked to electricity at the same time. One computer or electrical problem jeopardizes all back ups.

Thanks,
barondla
12-15-2019, 11:22 AM - 2 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
... There are also extreme external hard drives that live through fire and flood.
IoSafe goes extreme with disaster-proof hard drive - CNET
Iosafe looks good but "overkill" for me!

QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
My friend also said all hard drives shouldn't be hooked to electricity at the same time. One computer or electrical problem jeopardizes all back ups.
Another difficult one to "solve" on a site where you have only one incoming 230V single-phase supply, but no standby genny or large capacity UPS (many of which can kick out a lot of EMI anyway) - guess I'll have to pass on that as well
12-15-2019, 02:29 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
I load SD cards with images to display in class. The Pentax K-7 is hooked to a tv and there are about 30 cards with images. Some cards haven't been used in 3 years. Popped some cards into the K-7 and one card wouldn't display any images. So I checked all the cards and was surprised to find 5 not working. Checked them in a K20D and still no images. 5 out of thirty is a much higher failure rate than expected!

Loaded them into the laptop and 3 of the 5 display images. Two are absolutely dead. Manufacturers are quick to point out that memory cards aren't for long term storage. Surprised at the number of faltering cards. Granted, some are around 10 years old, but they aren't being continually written/read/ and deleted. They mostly just sat in a SD card case. The brands are 3 PNY, 1 Patriot, and 1 Sandisk. Apparently the computer can handle more card degradation than the cameras. Anyone else run into similar results?

Luckily all these files are backed up to multiple external hard drives. That now has me a little worried. Will have to check the hard drives after the holidays.

thanks,
barondla
No need to panic. Stay calm and download software called "Recuva" You will be surprised to find that it can rescue images that were feared lost. I had a Lexmark sd card that had the same issue and was delighted when I was able to retrieve some photos of personal significance that were formerly lost.
12-15-2019, 02:37 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeallen01 Quote
Iosafe looks good but "overkill" for me!


Another difficult one to "solve" on a site where you have only one incoming 230V single-phase supply, but no standby genny or large capacity UPS (many of which can kick out a lot of EMI anyway) - guess I'll have to pass on that as well
Some better UPSes include a USB port or network connection and software to alert another computer so it can perform an automated safe shut-down.
12-15-2019, 02:59 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Some better UPSes include a USB port or network connection and software to alert another computer so it can perform an automated safe shut-down.
[I]
True but possibly "expensive", and hardly feasible when the backup NAS is 40+ ft from the computer - so, howabout a large mains charger-fed automotive battery
+ a high-capacity voltage regulator to supply +12V to my "remote" NAS and attached USB 4-bay storage unit - needs an output of a total of about 8A for both - to keep the remote storage alive until the computer feeding it "dies" after a power failure?
12-15-2019, 03:15 PM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeallen01 Quote
[I]
True but possibly "expensive", and hardly feasible when the backup NAS is 40+ ft from the computer - so, howabout a large mains charger-fed automotive battery
+ a high-capacity voltage regulator to supply +12V to my "remote" NAS and attached USB 4-bay storage unit - needs an output of a total of about 8A for both - to keep the remote storage alive until the computer feeding it "dies" after a power failure?
Check your NAS because some have a USB port for connecting to the UPS.

The automotive battery is OK, but a deep cycle battery (used in RVs, golf carts, marine, etc.) might have longer life and more reliable performance.
12-15-2019, 03:35 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Check your NAS because some have a USB port for connecting to the UPS..
That NAS has 2 USB ports - but my "simple" battery + regulator "possible solution" would not be "intelligent enough" to include the required USB port

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The automotive battery is OK, but a deep cycle battery (used in RVs, golf carts, marine, etc.) might have longer life and more reliable performance.
Quite so, but also probably "more expensive" than I would like to /could afford - and would probably last longer than me

Last edited by jeallen01; 12-15-2019 at 03:48 PM.
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