CD Archival Photo storage-suggestions

lesmore49 · 03-23-2009, 03:07 PM

I've got a LaCie external Hard drive storage for my photos. I also have been using Fuji Film CD's for backup. But I'm not sure how good this particular brand of CD is for long term storage.

The link is for another type of archival CD storage for photos...they say 300 years...coated with gold, etc. What should I be looking for in archival CD storage for long term...etc. , cost effectiveness, accurate recording, etc.

E-FILM GOLD CD-R SLEEVE/10 W/CASE

tybeck · 03-23-2009, 10:07 PM

Another relevant link. CD Lifetime Study Nist

lesmore49 · 03-26-2009, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by tybeck

Another relevant link. CD Lifetime Study Nist

Thanks for the info.

MikeW · 03-29-2009, 04:38 PM

Here's a link for the maker/distributor of the phthlalocyanine disks mentioned in the article. I have been very pleased with them:

MAM-A | Product Information

It is not a trivial issue:

Should You Worry About Data Rot? - Pogue’s Posts Blog - NYTimes.com

OregonJim · 03-29-2009, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by lesmore49

The link is for another type of archival CD storage for photos...they say 300 years...coated with gold, etc.

In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them!

Wheatfield · 03-30-2009, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by OregonJim

In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them!

Sage advice.
CDs really can't be trusted past 5 years or so, I think DVDs can be trusted a bit longer.
The secret to digital storage is multiple redundancy because there is no such thing as a long term storage solution, and for this, multiple hard drives are the best option.
I got myself a Drobo last spring and so far I've found it to be a good solution.
The drives are plug and play, and can be replaced on the fly. As a drive ages, it can simply be pulled out and replaced and the array will rebuild itself.

k100d · 03-30-2009, 06:47 AM

^^ second what wheatfield said
keep copies on your main computer, an external hd, and burned on DVDs, put some files online

leaftye · 04-10-2009, 11:47 AM

The problem with optical discs is that they decompose. Optical discs should be stored in a cool place to slow down decomposition. To stop it you'll want to either store it in a sealed container with an inert gas or to pull a vacuum.

Vylen · 04-10-2009, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by OregonJim

In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them!

i personally dont imagine myself living over 300 years...

OregonJim · 04-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Vylen

i personally dont imagine myself living over 300 years...

Neither do I - but the OP was claiming that somebody makes CDs that last for 300 years. Well, maybe if they're stored on the moon...

leaftye · 04-10-2009, 08:47 PM

Lol, you'd still have to put it in a tough container to protect against the devasting effects of space dust.

woof · 04-11-2009, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by OregonJim

In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them!

Printing is indeed a good idea. Use archival paper and place them in archival sleeves in an archival box. They should be good for about 200 years or so...

On the other hand, I have been involved with some FORMAL digital archiving and it is possible to archive digital. Archival Gold CD are indeed and acceptable media as long as you are aware that transferring them will of course be necessary some day.

No-one has ever said that it will not take work to preserve those archives. Not to pick on this response in particular, but the view that you should not archive to CD because it is going to be obsolete is ... shortsighted.

Thinking this through... if a standard CD will give up the ghost in 5 years, purchase a 300 year CD and archive away. This way, for the shhort term you are relatively safe. Reccomendation is also to store them in archival sleeves or cases and place them in archival boxes.

When the "new" media arrives, whatever it is, use it and transfer the data from your archival CD. But use an archival form of THAT media and when IT rolls over, rinse and repeat. Leave instructions to your kids/family/etc. to do the same.

No-one said we were going to be reading CDs 300 years from now. No-one said that archiving data does not take work, planning, and thought. There is little or no chance that any data will survive if, during the current technology generation, steps are not taken to preserve the data. Saying the current technology will not be used in the future and is therefore no go is tantamount to giving up completely on the concept of any possibility that the data will last.

Have it your way. For my part I'll make the attempt.

There is no way we know what the media of 300 years from now looks like. But we sure as HELL will not have anything to put on that media if we don't take some actually simple steps to preserve the data as best we can today AND accept the fact that some work will have to be done in future to continue the preservation of the data.

That said, I am using MAM as well as external hard drives. Oh, and I am printing on archival paper, placing in archival sleeves and storing in archival boxes.

woof

OregonJim · 04-11-2009, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by woof

Printing is indeed a good idea. Use archival paper and place them in archival sleeves in an archival box. They should be good for about 200 years or so...

On the other hand, I have been involved with some FORMAL digital archiving and it is possible to archive digital. Archival Gold CD are indeed and acceptable media as long as you are aware that transferring them will of course be necessary some day.

No-one has ever said that it will not take work to preserve those archives. Not to pick on this response in particular, but the view that you should not archive to CD because it is going to be obsolete is ... shortsighted.

I agree totally - it was not my intention to imply that you should not bother to archive digitally. The key is that it involves constant maintenance and migration to newer formats. So, every step along the way (viewed by itself) is a short-lived "solution". Printing is a one-time effort with minimal maintenance if done right. A hundred years from now, someone can look at your print and immediately comprehend its content. The same will not be true of whatever digital media you are storing on today.

leaftye · 04-11-2009, 07:21 PM

Wait.....CD? I'd much rather use dvd's at this point in time. I only expect any form of media to last about 10 years before it's time to move onto the next form of storage media. That should be long enough for a new media to become commonplace and extremely affordable. There will almost certainly be some degradation and losses regardless of the media or how/where it's physically stored.

Some losses can be mitigated by making multiple copies to store in separate locations. I'm sure not the only person that was relieved to learn their broker did backups like that when those planes flew into the towers. The other thing I currently do is to use Quickpar (free) to create recovery data on the disc in case certain files become corrupted. The losses should be quite minimal if duplicate copies are made, they're stored in a cool place and recovery data is used.

Ben_Edict · 04-12-2009, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

Sage advice.
CDs really can't be trusted past 5 years or so, I think DVDs can be trusted a bit longer.
The secret to digital storage is multiple redundancy because there is no such thing as a long term storage solution, and for this, multiple hard drives are the best option.
I got myself a Drobo last spring and so far I've found it to be a good solution.
The drives are plug and play, and can be replaced on the fly. As a drive ages, it can simply be pulled out and replaced and the array will rebuild itself.

Exactly.

All the claims about the lifespan of CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are questionable, as nobody has got the test data from real world experience. It is all only the result of controlled lab-measurements over a shoprt period of time and then interpolated into the future. I do not trust those interpolations.

The media with best storage shelf live today are simply hard discs. A recent test by the German mag "c't" (the most highly regarded technical IT magazine here) confirmed that again.

And as you rightly wrote, you need multiple copies and store them in different locations, to be on the sure side. And then you need to copy and change the digital formats over time, to keep the data readable.

My personal archiving is:
- 3 identical sets of DVDs, one stored externally (all DVDs in sleeves and boxes according to archival standards -PAT)
- all my "life data" are stored on a 4TB RAID6 NAS
- all RAWs and final TIFs are additionally back-uped to external hard discs, which I only use for these backups and otherwise they are switched off.

Since I introduced this system, I did not lose a single image, despite several of the Samsung HDs (which I bought for a time) died untimely...

Ben

03-23-2009, 03:07 PM	#1
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,337	CD Archival Photo storage-suggestions I've got a LaCie external Hard drive storage for my photos. I also have been using Fuji Film CD's for backup. But I'm not sure how good this particular brand of CD is for long term storage. The link is for another type of archival CD storage for photos...they say 300 years...coated with gold, etc. What should I be looking for in archival CD storage for long term...etc. , cost effectiveness, accurate recording, etc. E-FILM GOLD CD-R SLEEVE/10 W/CASE

03-30-2009, 06:37 AM	#6
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,976	Originally posted by OregonJim In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them! Sage advice. CDs really can't be trusted past 5 years or so, I think DVDs can be trusted a bit longer. The secret to digital storage is multiple redundancy because there is no such thing as a long term storage solution, and for this, multiple hard drives are the best option. I got myself a Drobo last spring and so far I've found it to be a good solution. The drives are plug and play, and can be replaced on the fly. As a drive ages, it can simply be pulled out and replaced and the array will rebuild itself. Last edited by Wheatfield; 04-12-2009 at 06:37 AM. Reason: spelling

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03-23-2009, 10:07 PM	#2
tybeck Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 452	Another relevant link. CD Lifetime Study Nist

03-26-2009, 05:18 PM	#3
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,337 Original Poster	Originally posted by tybeck Another relevant link. CD Lifetime Study Nist Thanks for the info.

03-29-2009, 04:38 PM	#4
MikeW Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Indiana Photos: Gallery Posts: 437	Here's a link for the maker/distributor of the phthlalocyanine disks mentioned in the article. I have been very pleased with them: MAM-A \| Product Information It is not a trivial issue: Should You Worry About Data Rot? - Pogue’s Posts Blog - NYTimes.com

03-29-2009, 08:46 PM	#5
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by lesmore49 The link is for another type of archival CD storage for photos...they say 300 years...coated with gold, etc. In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them!

03-30-2009, 06:47 AM	#7
k100d Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,911	^^ second what wheatfield said keep copies on your main computer, an external hd, and burned on DVDs, put some files online

04-10-2009, 11:47 AM	#8
leaftye New Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 16	The problem with optical discs is that they decompose. Optical discs should be stored in a cool place to slow down decomposition. To stop it you'll want to either store it in a sealed container with an inert gas or to pull a vacuum.

04-10-2009, 06:19 PM	#9
Vylen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,262	Originally posted by OregonJim In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them! i personally dont imagine myself living over 300 years...

04-10-2009, 08:43 PM	#10
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by Vylen i personally dont imagine myself living over 300 years... Neither do I - but the OP was claiming that somebody makes CDs that last for 300 years. Well, maybe if they're stored on the moon...

04-10-2009, 08:47 PM	#11
leaftye New Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 16	Lol, you'd still have to put it in a tough container to protect against the devasting effects of space dust.

04-11-2009, 05:44 PM	#12
woof Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the present Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,870	Originally posted by OregonJim In 300 years, nobody will even know what a CD was, let alone have a device to read one. There is no such thing as "long term digital storage" because digital storage formats are a rapidly moving target. If you want your photos to outlast you, print them! Printing is indeed a good idea. Use archival paper and place them in archival sleeves in an archival box. They should be good for about 200 years or so... On the other hand, I have been involved with some FORMAL digital archiving and it is possible to archive digital. Archival Gold CD are indeed and acceptable media as long as you are aware that transferring them will of course be necessary some day. No-one has ever said that it will not take work to preserve those archives. Not to pick on this response in particular, but the view that you should not archive to CD because it is going to be obsolete is ... shortsighted. Thinking this through... if a standard CD will give up the ghost in 5 years, purchase a 300 year CD and archive away. This way, for the shhort term you are relatively safe. Reccomendation is also to store them in archival sleeves or cases and place them in archival boxes. When the "new" media arrives, whatever it is, use it and transfer the data from your archival CD. But use an archival form of THAT media and when IT rolls over, rinse and repeat. Leave instructions to your kids/family/etc. to do the same. No-one said we were going to be reading CDs 300 years from now. No-one said that archiving data does not take work, planning, and thought. There is little or no chance that any data will survive if, during the current technology generation, steps are not taken to preserve the data. Saying the current technology will not be used in the future and is therefore no go is tantamount to giving up completely on the concept of any possibility that the data will last. Have it your way. For my part I'll make the attempt. There is no way we know what the media of 300 years from now looks like. But we sure as HELL will not have anything to put on that media if we don't take some actually simple steps to preserve the data as best we can today AND accept the fact that some work will have to be done in future to continue the preservation of the data. That said, I am using MAM as well as external hard drives. Oh, and I am printing on archival paper, placing in archival sleeves and storing in archival boxes. woof

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04-11-2009, 06:10 PM	#13
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by woof Printing is indeed a good idea. Use archival paper and place them in archival sleeves in an archival box. They should be good for about 200 years or so... On the other hand, I have been involved with some FORMAL digital archiving and it is possible to archive digital. Archival Gold CD are indeed and acceptable media as long as you are aware that transferring them will of course be necessary some day. No-one has ever said that it will not take work to preserve those archives. Not to pick on this response in particular, but the view that you should not archive to CD because it is going to be obsolete is ... shortsighted. I agree totally - it was not my intention to imply that you should not bother to archive digitally. The key is that it involves constant maintenance and migration to newer formats. So, every step along the way (viewed by itself) is a short-lived "solution". Printing is a one-time effort with minimal maintenance if done right. A hundred years from now, someone can look at your print and immediately comprehend its content. The same will not be true of whatever digital media you are storing on today.

04-11-2009, 07:21 PM	#14
leaftye New Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 16	Wait.....CD? I'd much rather use dvd's at this point in time. I only expect any form of media to last about 10 years before it's time to move onto the next form of storage media. That should be long enough for a new media to become commonplace and extremely affordable. There will almost certainly be some degradation and losses regardless of the media or how/where it's physically stored. Some losses can be mitigated by making multiple copies to store in separate locations. I'm sure not the only person that was relieved to learn their broker did backups like that when those planes flew into the towers. The other thing I currently do is to use Quickpar (free) to create recovery data on the disc in case certain files become corrupted. The losses should be quite minimal if duplicate copies are made, they're stored in a cool place and recovery data is used.

04-12-2009, 05:18 PM	#15
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Originally posted by Wheatfield Sage advice. CDs really can't be trusted past 5 years or so, I think DVDs can be trusted a bit longer. The secret to digital storage is multiple redundancy because there is no such thing as a long term storage solution, and for this, multiple hard drives are the best option. I got myself a Drobo last spring and so far I've found it to be a good solution. The drives are plug and play, and can be replaced on the fly. As a drive ages, it can simply be pulled out and replaced and the array will rebuild itself. Exactly. All the claims about the lifespan of CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are questionable, as nobody has got the test data from real world experience. It is all only the result of controlled lab-measurements over a shoprt period of time and then interpolated into the future. I do not trust those interpolations. The media with best storage shelf live today are simply hard discs. A recent test by the German mag "c't" (the most highly regarded technical IT magazine here) confirmed that again. And as you rightly wrote, you need multiple copies and store them in different locations, to be on the sure side. And then you need to copy and change the digital formats over time, to keep the data readable. My personal archiving is: - 3 identical sets of DVDs, one stored externally (all DVDs in sleeves and boxes according to archival standards -PAT) - all my "life data" are stored on a 4TB RAID6 NAS - all RAWs and final TIFs are additionally back-uped to external hard discs, which I only use for these backups and otherwise they are switched off. Since I introduced this system, I did not lose a single image, despite several of the Samsung HDs (which I bought for a time) died untimely... Ben