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12-24-2009, 08:35 AM   #1
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Time for a Nodal Ninga?

Morning all, Well I have been on (semi) vacation this week (the office keeps calling about various items), but I have managed to devote a fair amount of time to the camera (the hobby), and in particular my current "experiment". I posted on another section, a bit about what I am doing (or trying to do)...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-photography-techniques-styles/834...panoramas.html

The images produced by the FA31Ltd are the best I have done to date. I am VERY satisfied with the outcome. Over the last few evenings, I went back and corrected my oversight - ISO 100 now and what I have is the best that can be done (with the K20 - I think) short of a full frame or a medium format camera. So why the post. I have been trying to essentially get a bit more foreground, basically a bit more in front of the house (lower center right) - so that it does not have the appearance of being cut off. The 12-24 (at 18mm its sharpest focal length) does it nicely, however with the wider horizontal field of view, I loose definition (as expected), more field of view squeezed in to the same number of pixels (still a good image - but now spoiled by the 31).

So, and I knew that it was coming to this, a panoramic head - probably a Nodal Ninga, so that I can take a second row of images to be stitched in, thus adding to the foreground, while not sacrificing the detail that I have of the main row that I currently have. Actually, I could also capture some additional sky, especially when the clouds are particularly attractive - and that would be a definite plus.

So the Nodal Ninga - I am looking at the NN3 with the RD16 base. I do not need a leveling base, as I would be using the Acratech GP ball head inverted, so that it provides a leveled panning head (that works great, by the way). I have tried slewing the lens down a bit to try a second row, but that bring in other problems. What I have not done yet is to use the gimbal feature, but I have to think that would also introduce some problems as well. Looking for a general purpose solution to a wide range of similar situations. I am using this particular vista as a test bed for a lot of other images I have in mind.

My question is - is the RD16 the right base (I would like to have the most versatility available), not wanting to limit myself to only something under 50mm of focal length. I have been trying to figure out the functional differences between the RD16, RD8 and the RD3L versions (6-8-10 and the 6-8-30). I am not really looking to do 360s, just well defined, high resolution stitched panoramas, usually in the early evening. As with the examples in the link above, they are usually between 90 to 180 degrees wide.

I guess if I had come to this conclusion sooner, I could have made use of Bling's 20% discount. But - Oh well.....

12-24-2009, 09:39 AM   #2
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You would be best served by calling direct, explaining what you want to do and asking for their recommendations. Ask about the return policy if it fails to meet your expectations (they are very service oriented).
12-24-2009, 01:57 PM   #3
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You might be interested in this thread - https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/field-accessories/79716-need-help-pano-heads.html particularly post #8.

Panoguy has been doing panos for a long time, has a lot of experience with pano heads and is currently using Nodal Ninja's as his weapon of choice.

He may even offer you further advice if you ask him nicely.

Last edited by Damn Brit; 12-24-2009 at 07:50 PM.
12-24-2009, 06:53 PM   #4
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Gary - Thanks for the suggestion - I should follow up on that, but later seeing that its Christmas Eve.

I finally figured out their base configurations and the differences. I would have made things a bit clearer on their website for the base product. I finally found the descriptions I was looking for on the base descriptions.

12-24-2009, 10:56 PM   #5
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I have been using the NN for a couple of years now. I recently upgraded to the new base but have not yet employed it.

I researched for a long time on all the makers out there. Money really wasn't a problem, so the right one for me was the one that I chose.

The NN3 is well made and light in comparison to many of heavyweights in the market. It is a very accurate piece of equipment, relatively inexpensive and the company is an absolute pleasure to deal with.

I still only work in film for my daily work, but digital is used primarily for pano work. For the type of pano work I do (up to 60 plus images per pano) it does everything I need it to do.

Some panos with the NN3 that I have done this year can be seen at http://www.pbase.com/scgushue/pano_2009

Stephen
12-25-2009, 12:03 PM   #6
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Good Morning and Merry Christmas Stephen,

I have known about the Nodal Ninga for several years and have been gravitating in this direction for quite a while. A local photography shop sponsored a class with Kornelius Schorle (aka: "The Long Skinny Picture Guy") that I went to a year or so ago. I have been experimenting for some time with what I have had available, and adding equipment over time.

I wound up ordering the NN3 yesterday, not realizing that they actually shipped it about 30 minutes after the order. Last night I found that they are actually located south of Phoenix in Chandler. If I would have looked earlier, I would have just driven down and picked it up. I figured out their base functions and laid out my lenses angles of view, so I was right with the RD16 choice.

I had a very enjoyable time perusing through your stitched images. Looking at the exif meta data (on your waterfalls), answered a number of questions. Wonderful images!!! There are a couple of local points that I use to practice on - one overlooking Camelback Mountain and another on Mummy Mountain overlooking a small valley that is wonderful for sunsets. Each a 5 minute drive from the house and wonderful targets of opportunity on which to test out ideas.

I am going to have to start doing more weekend trips - you images from the Southwest are wonderful. May I ask what lenses you used?

12-25-2009, 01:08 PM   #7
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Wow! Ordered on Christmas Eve and it shipped out the same day? Rob (or Bill) really needs to take a few days off...

The RD16 is pretty much the ultimate rotator, and the NN3 is great for a K20D (*without the grip*) and almost all lenses you might use. If you start shooting "gigapanos" with a long telephoto, you might run out of "parallax adjustment room" on the upper arm, but typically you won't see any parallax with distant subjects like landscapes.

I use a 10-17mm fisheye and the whole package is quite compact and versatile for my needs (full sphericals). If I need a higher resolution, I zoom to 17mm!

12-26-2009, 08:59 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
Good Morning and Merry Christmas Stephen,

I have known about the Nodal Ninga for several years and have been gravitating in this direction for quite a while. A local photography shop sponsored a class with Kornelius Schorle (aka: "The Long Skinny Picture Guy") that I went to a year or so ago. I have been experimenting for some time with what I have had available, and adding equipment over time.

I wound up ordering the NN3 yesterday, not realizing that they actually shipped it about 30 minutes after the order. Last night I found that they are actually located south of Phoenix in Chandler. If I would have looked earlier, I would have just driven down and picked it up. I figured out their base functions and laid out my lenses angles of view, so I was right with the RD16 choice.

I had a very enjoyable time perusing through your stitched images. Looking at the exif meta data (on your waterfalls), answered a number of questions. Wonderful images!!! There are a couple of local points that I use to practice on - one overlooking Camelback Mountain and another on Mummy Mountain overlooking a small valley that is wonderful for sunsets. Each a 5 minute drive from the house and wonderful targets of opportunity on which to test out ideas.

I am going to have to start doing more weekend trips - you images from the Southwest are wonderful. May I ask what lenses you used?

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.

I have all my limited's, DA and FA calibrated for the NN. But, almost without exception I use the FA 31 Ltd for 80 percent of my panos. My followup lens might well be the FA 77 Ltd.

I use PTGui as my assembler and PP in CS3...now CS4.

PM me any time for any questions you might have. I'd be more than happy to share info that makes the learning curve shorter for you.

Stephen
12-27-2009, 11:50 AM   #9
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Hi ivoire - well if I would have taken your wonderful advice and called them - like I should have, I would have saved myself the cost of shipping it 20 miles...

Stephen - I was somewhat perfectly content with the 12-24 puttering around. I seem to do a lot at 20mm so I was thinking about getting a prime - the DA21Ltd, and actually found one used at a camera shop back east that was in mint condition and the price was right. I did not look too closely at the picture (or at all), but thought about it for 6 weeks and then ordered it. The following night I actually looked at the picture and it was of a FA31Ltd, which arrived in the mail (the ad also had the 31's serial number). So, after stopping down and using it the same way as the 12-24, the 31 is incredibility sharp and the colors are wonderful, and I needed a second and possibly a third row to get the overall view - hence the NN. I also have an A 50 f1.7 that I am thinking of using. That is probably all the wider I really want to go, although I am wondering how a 77 would work on some views that have some additional distance to them.

After hearing/reading that you MUST fix the aperture and exposure for consistency across the stitched image, I find that I am fudging quite a bit and actually getting better results, especially at sunsets and after dusk with the glow in the sky. The 31 has the incredible ability to pull the best blue out of the dusk sky of any of my lenses.

I have held off from picking up PTgui (for a couple of years now), but now that I see that they use RAW format, and also do HDR on the fly, both of which would be a large plus, something that I wanted to do together to some extent. I had played around with it several times, I just should punch the [accept] key and be done with it.

Thanks for the offer - I will be taking you up on it....

Hope you all have had a Merry Christmas - and to everyone a Happy New Year!
12-27-2009, 04:01 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
Hi ivoire - well if I would have taken your wonderful advice and called them - like I should have, I would have saved myself the cost of shipping it 20 miles...

Stephen - I was somewhat perfectly content with the 12-24 puttering around. I seem to do a lot at 20mm so I was thinking about getting a prime - the DA21Ltd, and actually found one used at a camera shop back east that was in mint condition and the price was right. I did not look too closely at the picture (or at all), but thought about it for 6 weeks and then ordered it. The following night I actually looked at the picture and it was of a FA31Ltd, which arrived in the mail (the ad also had the 31's serial number). So, after stopping down and using it the same way as the 12-24, the 31 is incredibility sharp and the colors are wonderful, and I needed a second and possibly a third row to get the overall view - hence the NN. I also have an A 50 f1.7 that I am thinking of using. That is probably all the wider I really want to go, although I am wondering how a 77 would work on some views that have some additional distance to them.

After hearing/reading that you MUST fix the aperture and exposure for consistency across the stitched image, I find that I am fudging quite a bit and actually getting better results, especially at sunsets and after dusk with the glow in the sky. The 31 has the incredible ability to pull the best blue out of the dusk sky of any of my lenses.

I have held off from picking up PTgui (for a couple of years now), but now that I see that they use RAW format, and also do HDR on the fly, both of which would be a large plus, something that I wanted to do together to some extent. I had played around with it several times, I just should punch the [accept] key and be done with it.

Thanks for the offer - I will be taking you up on it....

Hope you all have had a Merry Christmas - and to everyone a Happy New Year! :

I really think that the FA31 is perhaps the ultimate lens for tight pano work. If I decide that I want to print large with 300DPI, 12-16 frames from the FA 31 surely gives me the impact that I want.

The idea of manual settings is really the only way to go. AV which I use most of the other times simply will not work in a varied landscape.

One of the advantages of using PTGui is that you can bracket your images in a pano and do a fusion of the bracketed images rather than an HDR. I prefer fusion assemblages to HDR as the scene is much more natural. Not that I don't like HDR it's just that I am not anywhere near close to mastering it.

Also, some of the images that you see a reading for in my pano gallery and waterfall series are focal lengths created by PTGui which calculates the viewing angle based on metadata information. How accurate that interp is anyones guess. Max Lyons site and the pano software that he sells is pretty advanced too, although, I think it is not as automated as PTGui. But Max seems to constantly be upgrading the projections and the power of the software. The forums there, while clearly not all that active due to the specialty that most people don't want to commit the time and energy to perfect, is a treasure trove of landscape pano information.

Look forward to hearing from you and seeing some work.

Stephen
12-27-2009, 05:11 PM   #11
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For my zooms, 12-24, 16-45 (I have not done anything for the 55-300 yet), is to go to one of the lens testing sites and use the data there to determine the best focal length of the lens, and also the optimum f stop value for the best resolution, and least vinginetting. Then, for the focal lengths (including the 31 and 50) and using the best f stop, I use a DOF calculator (online) to determine the hyperfocal distance, and use that to set the lens to. To date, I have just been using a panning ball head (acratech GP) for single rows, and also trying it off level but knowing that was not going to work too well.

Getting the 31, pushed me into the pano head. Its sharpness and color rendition is just too good. The A50/1.7 I might try out tonight and see how it compares. The sun is just starting to go down here.

I figure that the NN should come tomorrow and I can test it out tomorrow evening, since I have another week of vacation. Also, thinking of driving up to the Montezuma's Castle about an 90 minutes north and trying a number of things out there.

montezuma's castle arizona - Google Images

I figure that if I get there around 10am I'll have the sun behind me until about noon. I can try the 31, 50, and 55 - 300 and see what I get. I figure that I'll go to google earth and use the measurement tool to get a set of distances and figure out some angles for each lens, and especially try out the 55-300 (at least at 77mm) that I have no feeling for at all in this situation. I'll probably take my calculator along, and maybe even borrow my son's netbook so I can possibly load up the images and see how they look before driving back.

I also, want to see how the shadows work at this site, along with the lenses, as opposed to just a flat face on set of shots. I am thinking that the shadows should give it some level of depth to the shots. I think that with a wide array of lenses, I can load up with a sufficient variety of shots to play around with in the future and see what works well and what is not worth the effort. We stopped there earlier this year when taking our older son up to Flagstaff for school and there were two sets of paths that offered some great and different vantage points. I think that these would be a pretty easy way to get started with a rather interesting target of opportunity.

From what I have experienced so far, I have to agree that the 31 is a lens that appears to be absolutely perfect for this. Its also a lens that I would have not probably purchased for myself. Based on what I see here, I maybe saving up my lunch money for a 77 since everything is going up in price (probably used - especially the way folks here treat their equipment, I'll watch the marketplace).

Also, just thinking a minute about bracketing here, especially with the potential of the deep shadows at the castle. Bracketing may indeed bring out some of the more interesting features. I might even try maybe a 3x3 with either a 3 or 5 bracket shot just to see what turns out. I think for this type of activity, the K20 really can not be beat. I am glad that I splurged back in May when the price dipped. Its additional resolution, and I think especially in this respect will be an interesting test.

The other thing is that I just found out that the Costco here prints 20"x30" full color for $8.99. You just upload your JPG and then drive by to pick it up. This may be a wonderful test all the way around.

12-27-2009, 08:18 PM   #12
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I will check my field book which has my settings for all my lenses used on the NN3 and send them to you via PM. These settings took me quite a few hours of maticulous work to refine. They may be of use for you. These settings will guarantee no paralax issues.

I recommend that you try doing at least two rows and perhaps three with about a 25-33% overlap horizontally. Vertically I don't generally exceed 15 degrees range as I prefer more overlap on that axis.

I also would recomend a SOLID tripod and a remote to trigger your camera. Hand firing will definately reduce the chance of registration if you are bracketing as well as panning (both vertically and horizontally).

If you want to reduce your brackets down to three images, set the spread to 1.3 f-stops either side of dead on exposure.

BTW, I didn't realize that PTGui did RAW. I'll have to go and check on that tonight.

Stephen
12-28-2009, 09:23 AM   #13
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Thank you very much for the offer. The data will be of great help - and a wonderful time saver. I have been using a wired remote for several years now, and its wonderful. When I picked up an L bracket earlier this year, I took the cabling in to account so that I would have a minimum of interference. I also have an IR as backup, but I prefer the wired interface.

Again, earlier this year I went on the elusive tripod hunt to replace my $7.11 special that fell apart. For traveling, I wanted one that would fit into my carry on. Depending on my destination and weather, I have a standard set of gear that I carry. But then if its snowing - I only take my LX3, so as to make room for warmer clothing. So we will see how solid the tripod is with all the mechanical structure sitting on top of it.

I found the images from our last trip that we stopped at Montezuma's Castle and a single 40mm shot covers everything very nicely. It appears that the ruins are only about 300 feet away on the horizontal, so 425 feet away on the slant. It appears that the 50 and the 55-300 will do very nicely, and the 31 would do it in 3 easy shots - so we will see. I'll just take as many shots as it takes to cover the cliff side. I might even, after the Castle, drive over to the other side of the valley and see how the light and colors play at Sedona.

Sedona Az - Google Images

Thanks again for the very insightful help and advice...
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