[whitelotus9]

Ash, We (at least I do) highly value your thoughts and opinions and comments in this forum. One problem that I see is that Adam appears to be unwilling to "clean-up" the judging through your suggestions or as a result of the scale being heavily tipped in favor of the need for change.

My purpose with posting about using a photo shot with Pentax only gear from a tripod would (or should) remove all of the judges' quibbles of issues in a photo since the camera would be controlling just about everything but composition. Should such a photo still fail to make muster, then it is the Pentax equipment that is at fault and not the photographer's ability. Or it would be that the judges will only pass a photo when it had been PP'd extensively which will also send a signal about what they are looking for. As it is, it seems as though they pass photos on a whim (or perhaps because the submitter has recently made a good size donation to the site....hadn't thought about that... ) I think the judging should be out in the open and the judges should be held accountable for their comments which should be mandatory if they vote to not accept!! And they should also be required to offer constructive suggestions on what they feel needs to be inproved and how so that a rejection can serve as a learning tool. Let's face it, if you are taking photos that regularly get accepted, you are doing something right...if you are taking photos that are not getting accepted, you need to make some changes or seek help but you have to know what needs help. Sure it will slow down the process, but where is the rush to approve? Take the time, do the job right, do the whole job, and do so in a manner that will be accountable. Who knows, maybe through the judging being cleaned up, we might all benefit by learning where we're lacking and what we need to do so we can all regularly take the extraordinary photos instead of collecting rejection notices...

[atupdate]

Let me make this clear: questioning judge comments matters naught - it is neither frowned upon nor praised. If for any of my comments the sense of defensiveness is being conveyed then please accept my apologies and retraction of any remarks of this nature.

Furthermore I would also like to make *very* clear that whatever is posted under my name is personal opinion only and is neither authoritative nor representative in this forum and for PEG.

There is no mandatory commenting for PEG feedback, and this is how I perceive the non-requirement of justification for votes to be. How would it be if PEG voting went the same way as PPG voting? I would wager that there would be less disgruntlement and more shooting.

Nevertheless, we've come full circle in this very thread with this - see here, here, here (where I foresaw what would come from discussing voters' comments), here and back here on feedback becoming the problem rather than the solution, then the corollary argument from another member here. I've even gone as far as putting it to Adam to make feedback more practically useful to the submitter here: PEG voting feedback. So I think I've flogged this horse hard enough, and this is no one-man show, so I'll have no further input on this very matter here.

Ash,

I'm very pleased with the way you freely comment on the goings of this thread. To be honest, you make a better host than I do. What this thread has taught me is that getting into the PEG is almost as much about the judges personal tastes as it is about the technicalities and sometimes, those tastes are related to the technicalities. There are several accepted images that are technically sound that I find as boring as can be. There are also near doubles that make me question why they would except both from the same photographer.

What people need to do is to look at the rejects, compare them to the accepted images, and see which of their images might best fit the PEG. I've tossed a few into judging that I didn't think would pass just to test the boundaries. I haven't shot much "artistically" lately, as most of my shooting has been for family events. When things get warmer here, the ratio between the two will change. Then I'll be expecting to produce a few more acceptable images.

This is a game folks and does not reflect the worth of your images in any way. We have a new gallery to submit to with a set of new, unknown judges to please. Have fun taking shots and submit your favorites. It doesn't cost anything and you can't win if your don't play.

Tim

Tim

[jheu02]

My purpose with posting about using a photo shot with Pentax only gear from a tripod would (or should) remove all of the judges' quibbles of issues in a photo since the camera would be controlling just about everything but composition. Should such a photo still fail to make muster, then it is the Pentax equipment that is at fault and not the photographer's ability. Or it would be that the judges will only pass a photo when it had been PP'd extensively which will also send a signal about what they are looking for. As it is, it seems as though they pass photos on a whim (or perhaps because the submitter has recently made a good size donation to the site....hadn't thought about that... )

I think that's a very simplistic take at photography, and a potshot at the judges. Composition notwithstanding, there's a lot more to a photograph than equipment. To bring in contributions to the site as a requirement is ridiculous.

I think the judging should be out in the open and the judges should be held accountable for their comments which should be mandatory if they vote to not accept!! And they should also be required to offer constructive suggestions on what they feel needs to be inproved and how so that a rejection can serve as a learning tool.

Realize that the judges are doing this voluntarily. Held accountable, mandatory, required...very strong words given the nature of volunteering. That said, I think what seems to bug me the most, and others who've commented here and elsewhere, is when the comments that are received are inconsistent and/or contradictory. The submitter then doesn't really know what's wrong if anything. A possible solution to this would be to have the panel of judges come to a concensus over acceptance or/not (as I believe is current practice) but if not accepted, then have just one judge give the comments that the judges have agreed upon as to the reason(s) for rejection.

For the re-submission process to be worth anything, the same group of judges should do the rejudging if the photo is resubmitted, but based only on the recommendations and corrections to said problems. Other aspects of the photo that previously "passed" should no longer be a reason for future rejection. If the decision to reject a photo is basically based on judges personal preference for subject matter, in my opinion, they shouldn't be judging, or should be recused from that photo, like a courtroom judge removes him(her)self of there's a potential conflict of interest.

This still doesn't overrule the "if I was walking through a gallery, would I stop at this photo and look at it longer, or just pass by" criteria. I think that if the answer to this question is YES, the judges should really give a second thought to rejecting a photo based on some perceived technical flaw, because the shot did what the photog was aiming for...it grabbed your attention. Here's an example: the photog intentionally skews or angles the horizon to convey an unballanced, uneasy feeling. With the appropriate subject matter (perhaps a war zone or rundown section of a city), this can be very effective and absolutely not a flaw. Whereas, for a landscape of a sunrise, this would be a huge mistake.

[thoughton]

While I can intellectually agree with the points raised by whitelotus, atupdate and jheu02, I tend not to agree with most of them as I think they are unrealistic. For example the judges will never have time to discuss every photo, so asking for consensus opinion is never going to work.

All I want is for the judges to spend a minute or two and closely look at the photo they are judging, before making their comments. On many occasions this doesn't seem to be happening, as evidenced by numerous comments that simply don't make sense. At other times I think the judges are too focussed on what are, to be frank, beginners' guidelines to exposure and composition. One of my images was rejected apparently due blown out highlights in the reflection of a (lit) lightbulb. This struck me as particularly asinine, of course that highlight was blown out! I don't see how it could be otherwise.

[virgilr]

Frankly, the whole process is a little too frustrating in that I'm never sure what target I'm supposed to aim at. I have images that I feel are worthy of a second look, because the subject matter intrigues me and my analysis of composition, lighting and perspective seem to be in order. I work in PP on that image to bring out the qualities in the image that give importance to what the image makes me feel.

I then receive anywhere from 3-6 different comments on the photo ranging from positive four word comments to technical issues that could be fixed to dismissive comments about the subject matter.

Yes, I've submitted interiors. This is a subject that I find intriguing. What if a judge doesn't find this a compelling subject? Photo is rejected. I personally don't find macros of flowers that interesting- but I wouldn't dismiss a photo based solely on my interest in the subject matter- I'd try and see the merits of the photo and use criteria based on what is presented by the photographer and some of the accepted "rules" of photography to help me evaluate the merits of the image.

I do not in any way wish to criticize this process- it is by it's nature subject to perception and interest. That is why there are so many different forms of photography and so many different photos made every day, and everyone will have their personal reaction to an image. However, due to the fact that I have no idea of what criteria are put in place, how many judges need to accept a photo for it to be accepted to the gallery and if someone doesn't like my subject matter, I feel that it is just too frustrating at my development stage of making images to continue.

I'll try and improve my efforts based on these criticisms, become more focused on how I wish to represent my subjects and apply more rigorously the guidelines of composition, perspective and lighting and try again at a time where I feel that my images bring something valid to the gallery.

Hopefully no more comments like "An ordinary room. Nothing exclusive about this image, sorry."

[atupdate]

Frankly, the whole process is a little too frustrating in that I'm never sure what target I'm supposed to aim at. I have images that I feel are worthy of a second look, because the subject matter intrigues me and my analysis of composition, lighting and perspective seem to be in order. I work in PP on that image to bring out the qualities in the image that give importance to what the image makes me feel.

I then receive anywhere from 3-6 different comments on the photo ranging from positive four word comments to technical issues that could be fixed to dismissive comments about the subject matter.

Yes, I've submitted interiors. This is a subject that I find intriguing. What if a judge doesn't find this a compelling subject? Photo is rejected. I personally don't find macros of flowers that interesting- but I wouldn't dismiss a photo based solely on my interest in the subject matter- I'd try and see the merits of the photo and use criteria based on what is presented by the photographer and some of the accepted "rules" of photography to help me evaluate the merits of the image.

I do not in any way wish to criticize this process- it is by it's nature subject to perception and interest. That is why there are so many different forms of photography and so many different photos made every day, and everyone will have their personal reaction to an image. However, due to the fact that I have no idea of what criteria are put in place, how many judges need to accept a photo for it to be accepted to the gallery and if someone doesn't like my subject matter, I feel that it is just too frustrating at my development stage of making images to continue.

I'll try and improve my efforts based on these criticisms, become more focused on how I wish to represent my subjects and apply more rigorously the guidelines of composition, perspective and lighting and try again at a time where I feel that my images bring something valid to the gallery.

Hopefully no more comments like "An ordinary room. Nothing exclusive about this image, sorry."

I love the mood and lighting of this room. It is done in a classic still life style with an interesting subject IMHO. It truly saddens me to see artistic photos like this one rejected. Please continue to shoot for yourself and don't worry about the gallery. Very nicely done.

Tim

[kbrede]

I love the mood and lighting of this room. It is done in a classic still life style with an interesting subject IMHO. It truly saddens me to see artistic photos like this one rejected. Please continue to shoot for yourself and don't worry about the gallery. Very nicely done.

Tim

+1 on what you said. That's a great image. It draws me in.

[Bramela]

Did anybody realise that judges submit photos for consideration as well. No they don't vote on their own.
They have rejections just the same as everybody else.

I suggest everybody get off the judges backs, and give them a break. Of course you think your photo is outstanding or brilliant. That is why you submitted it. But it is no given that others will think the same.
Is this not something that has been experienced in photo competitions across the world, since time immemorial?
What one judge likes, others find very ordinary or unacceptable.
It will never change.

That is photo competitions/judging and, as I said, it will never change.

[atupdate]

Did anybody realise that judges submit photos for consideration as well. No they don't vote on their own.
They have rejections just the same as everybody else.

They are encouraged to post their rejects here like everyone else. Whoever they are.

Tim

[virgilr]

I hope that in no way my statements were interpreted as "being on the judges backs". I just think that the black box of this gallery and, I guess to an extent, any photo contest where images are voted on, is one that I find a bit too stressful. That's all. I want to improve my skills and submit works that I hope have more of a chance of having enough wow factor to be accepted in this gallery- I've been here since 2008 and love this forum.

However, I think that this thread is important: it seriously could NEVER have been created and all posts relating to this subject deleted without any consideration. I am very appreciative of this thread and the support of knowing there's someplace to vent. And thank you Tim and Kent. I will keep shooting for myself!

That all being said, this is all free, there is no inherent risks, and I will stop griping. It's pointless and wastes good productive energy.

[atupdate]

Virgilr,

I just took a look at your online portfolio. Your style reminds me very much of Godfrey DiGiorgi (PENTAXIAN.com | The Community for PENTAX Users). He specializes in the "Art of the Everyday". Godfrey has posted on the other forum several pieces that I connected with very strongly. He also has some works that don't register with me. Either way, he sells his work professionally in art galleries.

Please do not take any rejection from the Exclusive Gallery personally, as you are very gifted. I would encourage your to submit Tiptoe Up and Lillypad Rests to the gallery. I love the abstractness of Tiptoe up and the B&W conversion of Lillypad Rests.

Tim

[Ash]

They are encouraged to post their rejects here like everyone else. Whoever they are.

Tim

Hello Tim.
How do you know they are not already posting their rejects here?

[virgilr]

Tim-
Thank you very much for your encouraging comments! My wife and I attended an exhibition at the McCord Museum here in Montreal yesterday by Gabor Szilasi, which was titled "The Eloquence of the Everyday". I'm realizing that through what I make pictures of this is what I'm striving to find- the art and beauty of the everyday. There is a limited selection of his photos here.

Just one last note before I empty my head of this (and move on to finding some ideas of things to photograph in the armpit month of the year here in Montreal)- I think that the gallery is a fantastic idea, and I just wish it wasn't being managed as a popularity contest- I just find that counter-intuitive to the nature of it being a gallery. It shouldn't so much be "I really like this picture", as a representation of quality photography by the members of this forum. Whatever that means, I guess, but more encompassing of styles and subject matter. There. Done with that.

[atupdate]

Hello Tim.
How do you know they are not already posting their rejects here?

I don't. But I hope the judging pool is a little bigger than the number of us rejects posting here

Tim

[whitelotus9]

I understand that the judges of PEG are volunteers and that they may see xxx photo submittals a day (I don't have a clue what the number really is) so they may not have a large amount of time to craft their comments. I do think if their comments are to be a learning tool for the submitters, there has to be some suggestion of what they were looking for or what would negate the percieved "flaws".

In some cases, the "flaws" that were commented on are uncorrectable given the subject matter of the photo. Taking a photo of a black or grey gator laying beside a dark lake with any follage present showing it's wintered paleness and having the judges comment that the photo has "flat colors", well, there's not much that can be done with that one in the darkroom and there weren't a lot of vibrant colors present. Yes, I suppose the photographer could PP in some purple or yellow or red or orange....but would it look natural? Nope! Would it be an accurate representation of the scene that the photo was seeking to capture? Nope!