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05-30-2012, 08:19 PM   #556
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Adam:

This is precisely what my photography club does. It realy does work very well!

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05-31-2012, 01:29 AM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
They way the photos are judged right now is on a simple pass/fail basis. I just got an idea- what if our judges, rather than having to say yes or no, simply had to rate a photo in terms of criteria such as composition, technicalities, and personal appeal? Those three categories could then be weighted internally and the system would let a photo in one certain criteria have been met.
It's got to be worth a try Adam! The current system is simply broken, there are far too many outstanding images being rejected and a significant number of technically fine but aesthetically boring that are being accepted. I look at Dr Orloff's mono portrait a few pages back and I wonder what it takes to get something interesting past these judges. In fact Dr Orloff said it himself, compare the rejected portrait with his accepted sparrow. I bet you could show those two photos to a bazillion people and the vast majority would say the portrait was far more impressive.
05-31-2012, 09:34 PM   #558
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Adam, you need to find a way to factor in the photographer's input about their photo.....as far as what the photographer was seeking to capture and how they were seeking to capture it.....soft focus, etc. The judges might fail a photo because it has 'soft focus" when in reality the photographer was seeking to capture the image with a soft focus.....it does matter what the photographer's intentions were when taking the given shot.....
06-03-2012, 11:58 PM   #559
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Well, how many soft focus images are in the PEG? So that doesn't seem to figure in at all. More seriously:

Seems I have missed an interesting discussion here. I like the idea of a formalized set of criteria as suggested by Tess. The deliberately defocussed moody piece would still have the focus 'right' (we have to assume that the judges are able to recognize that).

But all that feedback on submissions could be solved by the users. How's about a separate thread 'Brutally honest critique of PEG rejections'? If you are not up for brutal honesty then don't submit there and if you do all the other members should try their hardest to find fault with the image and write it down. It might have been the original intention of this thread.

I'm a member of a small group of people that are doing exactly that (and some of you know well what I'm referring to). I submit what at the time I think is a wonderful image and it gets torn to shreds (a little exaggeration here) in many cases. If I look back at the criticism after some weeks or months I easily can see the points that have been made (in most cases ). That way I can improve this picture (in PP) or the next one keeping the mute points in mind when shooting similar things) and thus also improve my level of photography.

It only works well when all parties have a mutual respect for their photography and take the criticism as criticism of that piece of work rather than criticism on them as a person.
The second precondition (and a hard one to meet) is that there are sufficient numbers of people taking the time to look at an image in depth and voice their opinion on what is wrong with it. So you have to spend some time looking on other peoples images and think and write about it. Time that could be spent taking photos...

I'm one of the regular whiners here about rejections but I do appreciate that the judges have the final say about what images are accepted. It would be nice if the feedback could be a bit more coherent (and a formal appraisal would help with that) but if the judges are not able to do that we can do it ourselves.

Having said that, if the judges are not able to do it then it probably doesn't make sense to interpret anything into their decisions or comments, it would just show that they don't have enough time for a proper appraisal (and I got very swift rejections in some cases). I would understand that but it would mean that the PEG is not what it says on the label...

Prieni

06-04-2012, 05:48 PM   #560
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Prieni, first of all, you are 100% correct that there are almost no soft focus images in PEG. That is because the judges assume that the submittal should have been in focus and the photographer really wanted to have the photo in focus therefore is must be a reject because it is not in focus. Because the judges do not ask what the photographer's intention for the photo was or because it is not given or because it was given and the judges choose to ignore any commentary the photographer provides, there is a miscommunication which results in a rejection that perhaps should not be a rejection.

There is also the possibility when the judge thinks the photo is out of focus (or uses that as the "rejection reason du jour") when if they bothered to really examine the photo they'd find that the focus is "spot on". I had one of those and decided that resubmitting to try to get a different judge wasn't worth it. Which brings up another glaring fault of PEG; namely the lack of a means of disputing the judges decision. Granted, there are going to be instances (maybe lots of them) when the judge's call is right...but all too often there are instances when the judge is not even in the same ballpark so to say and grabbed his wife's (or her husband's) glasses that morning and couldn't see the barn door if they tried.

But I think the biggest problem is that the judges just do not know what the photographer was thinking and intending for the given photo when taking it and doing their PP work. Knowing what the photographer's intention was then judging how well he/she pulled off that intention, THAT is the key to determining if the photo works or not.

I also agree with Prieni in that a rejection should be accompanied by a very detailed reason. If the judges are so overworked that they only have time to give an acronym for their reason (OOF), they are not taking sufficient time to really judge the photo and the system's broken!! Spread out the time they have to devote per submittal or get judges that will devote the right amount of time to do the complete job including giving meaningful reasons for their rejection. One of the benefits to the photographer submitting a photo is being able to learn from any rejections how they can improve their work...or it should be!!! And do not toss out a bunch of letters from the alphabet with the assumption that just because you know that OOF means Obviously Over Focused doesn't mean everyone else does. If you're going to toss an acronym, give its meaning also to insure both parties are on the same page of the dictionary. If you do not have time to write out a clear, meaningful rejection reason; then you do not have the proper time to devote to the job of judging so resign!!

And lastly, there needs to be an arbitration system setup!! If judge "X" feels that a photo of a flower blossom is out of focus but the photographer really knows it is "spot on" in focus (from having examined the photo under very tight zoom in and having examined the subject bloom while in the field) that photographer needs to have a way to request a meeting of the minds. What might come out of this is the realizatioin that there might be some judges that consistantly reject photos "just because" using lame reasons knowing that there is no "higher authority" or arbitration system to hold them accountable. Folks, last time I checked the judges are human and as such, they can and will make mistakes. There needs to be a mechanism for those mistakes to be identified, tabulated, and overruled.
06-04-2012, 05:59 PM   #561
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QuoteOriginally posted by whitelotus9 Quote
Adam, you need to find a way to factor in the photographer's input about their photo.....as far as what the photographer was seeking to capture and how they were seeking to capture it.....soft focus, etc. The judges might fail a photo because it has 'soft focus" when in reality the photographer was seeking to capture the image with a soft focus.....it does matter what the photographer's intentions were when taking the given shot.....
This is a good point. For example, the composition of a wild animal (with dangerous animals on the loose) is a different ball game than an animal in the zoo. I don't do zoo animals (other than for the family album), but yet some people don't take into account the differences. Some shots have harder technical difficulty etc. as well and those things often don't get taken into account.
06-06-2012, 07:26 AM   #562
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I tend to disagree, the photographers intention does not need to be known. If the intention doesn't reveal itself on evaluation then the photographer just got it wrong, the intention didn't work out (at least for the judges). I find that fair enough.

Yes, a wild animal is much harder to shoot and as such I appreciate a fuzzy shot of a grizzly in the distance. For a gallery like the PEG, however, I think the close up shot taken in the zoo under interesting lighting conditions is better placed in it.

The images should speak for themselves, no explanation needed. This bears the risk of misinterpretation but we have to live with that.

I also don't think there _has_ to be an arbitration system. It's like any brick-and-mortar gallery, the owner has the final say of what to take and what not.

Look through these 38 pages of rejects and discussion and you see that the system sometimes fails (and you see that the system seems to work well on other occasions). Look through the PEG and you might spot the odd acceptance that seems out of place (to your subjective taste that most probably differs from the judges subjective taste). But all in all it is a collection of very pleasing images.

Your images get rejected time and time again (like mine) - tough luck. Either try again and again until you hit the sweet spot or give up and spend the time with other things. None of my images in the PEG? Ok. It's a great collection even without my images (as hard as it seems to imagine), so flick through it and enjoy.

All this said I would welcome a formalized appraisal with feedback that you can work on. That would help to improve ones photography. But if it's not going to happen I won't loose any sleep over it.

06-06-2012, 09:48 AM   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by Prieni Quote
I tend to disagree, the photographers intention does not need to be known. If the intention doesn't reveal itself on evaluation then the photographer just got it wrong, the intention didn't work out (at least for the judges). I find that fair enough.

Yes, a wild animal is much harder to shoot and as such I appreciate a fuzzy shot of a grizzly in the distance. For a gallery like the PEG, however, I think the close up shot taken in the zoo under interesting lighting conditions is better placed in it.

The images should speak for themselves, no explanation needed. This bears the risk of misinterpretation but we have to live with that.

.
I wasn't talking about fuzzy shots. I am talking about a "judge" making comments about suggesting the animal be posed such as found with zoo shots. I am certainly not talking about distant grizzly shots. Sure the image should speak for itself. However a close up shot is a damn sight easier to pull off of a butterfly than an insect the size of a ball point pen head. Therefore, a good to excellent shot of such a tiny insect should be weighted against a closeup of a common butterfly of equal appeal. That is the other thing that hasn't been mentioned. juries for fine art shots are not necessarily experts on macro or nature or wildlife shots. Very few can be experts in all genres and types of photography. The photographer usually doesn't get eaten in the studio whereas stalking zebras can get you eaten or stomped flat.

You won't get this in the zoo unless something has gone very wrong . . .




Field Test: Serengeti Lions - Photo Gallery - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine


The top one from NG would probably make it in, but this one from NG probably would not. It could probably be done better at a zoo.


Last edited by Blue; 06-06-2012 at 10:23 AM.
06-06-2012, 09:53 AM   #564
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Back to the point though. I think that in some cases, not necessarily all cases, knowing something about the photo and circumstances is important in some genres. Like a night or very early morning shot, knowing if it was taken during the golden or blue hour would could be a big deal.
06-06-2012, 10:01 AM   #565
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A photo should speak for itself. I don't see why any explanation is necessary. The photo of the lion cubs is very good indeed. I certainly don't think that one needs a narrative. Did you submit it to the PEG and what was the feedback?
06-06-2012, 10:13 AM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dr Orloff Quote
A photo should speak for itself. I don't see why any explanation is necessary. The photo of the lion cubs is very good indeed. I certainly don't think that one needs a narrative. Did you submit it to the PEG and what was the feedback?
No, that was from the national geographic link. What I am getting at regarding information for some photos is that sometimes I wonder if jury members know much other than some b.s. from a couple of art classes. I suspect half of that N.G. series would not make it due to them being night and dusk shots. I see insect pics get into various places with the wrong order or suborder in the title. Hysterical



This is the only one I have ever submitted. It got put in the Nature User Gallery which is where it should be instead of the PEG anyway. I just entered it as an exercise. However, a couple of the comments were odd. There was a comment about the perspective and apparently would have preferred a zebra portrait with it facing me standing around. However, I am not certain I want a wild zebra (several actually) running at me because a 300mm lens is still too close in that respect. There was some complaints about dust bunnies that a I didn't catch but edited them out in the current version. There was a comment about the sky, but the sky is what it was that day. My personal complaint about this shot was that I didn't get set and fire until the zebra was slightly over the hill.


Last edited by Blue; 06-06-2012 at 10:29 AM.
06-06-2012, 10:53 AM   #567
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I'm afraid I don't see the value of posting someone else's shots that weren't even submitted to the PEG. However,if they had been accpeted I would have thought that the first would stand a very good chance of being accepted but the second no chance. I have seen much better shots of lions on a night safari than that.

Why don't you post the judges full comments on your zebra shot so we can see if they are helpful or not and whether the rejection is justified.
06-06-2012, 10:56 AM   #568
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dr Orloff Quote
I'm afraid I don't see the value of posting someone else's shots that weren't even submitted to the PEG. However,if they had been accpeted I would have thought that the first would stand a very good chance of being accepted but the second no chance. I have seen much better shots of lions on a night safari than that.

Why don't you post the judges full comments on your zebra shot so we can see if they are helpful or not and whether the rejection is justified.
The NG images were just a tool for discussion. Regarding the highlighted part: It really isn't an issue with me. I am o.k. with the overall decision. Plus, I don't see a need for an appeal process on the P.E.G. anyway.

Last edited by Blue; 06-06-2012 at 11:07 AM.
06-06-2012, 12:44 PM   #569
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So the judging of your image was reasonable and the rejection a fair decision?
06-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #570
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Yep. To me photographer intentions/circumstances add no further 'brownie points' to an image's merit, which is how images are judged in other big galleries such as NG and 1x.com
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