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02-01-2011, 07:50 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it isn't a bad image at all.
Just a matter of deciding whether it is 'exclusive' material or not... that's harder to agree upon.
Just keep the good entries going and don't be disheartened over the imperfections of the system.
I'm wondering if it might do better if submitted as a B&W. The fake horizon produced by the brown grass does shift the focus away from the person. You could also reset the black point so the image is basically a B&W silhouette.

Tim


Last edited by atupdate; 02-01-2011 at 10:47 AM.
02-01-2011, 09:47 AM   #122
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Latest one, with the best judge's comment yet



- Not quite abstract and not quite artistic. Doesn't seem to strike as interesting despite good composition and exposure.
- Nice colors, interesting view point, nicely composed.
- Unusual!
- ?????


I thought that 4th comment was ... well ... how about incredibly unprofessional for starters.
02-02-2011, 12:28 PM   #123
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Well, 0 for 5. I agree with the comments on the shots- I was more or less putting up shots I thought were good but not great. My bad. I'm just about to give up on any exclusive gallery listings (tried about a dozen on the PPG with no luck, just discouraging)- I have a feeling the talent isn't quite there, I need to "wait" more for more unique subjects to capture. Anyway, the only one that I thought, as a whole, gave a mood and feeling but didn't have enough "subject" to merit the gallery (I can see this shot is more about texture than anything).


02-02-2011, 01:17 PM   #124
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Definitely don't give up, but indeed don't bother to submit work that you know in your heart doesn't have the merit to get in the galleries. Just work on your fundamental skills, composition, lighting, perspective, subject matter - and opportunity. You may find your results improving with time and practice - remember that your first 10,000 captures are your worst.

02-03-2011, 11:57 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Definitely don't give up, but indeed don't bother to submit work that you know in your heart doesn't have the merit to get in the galleries. Just work on your fundamental skills, composition, lighting, perspective, subject matter - and opportunity. You may find your results improving with time and practice - remember that your first 10,000 captures are your worst.
Well, getting close to that, Ash! Around 9,000 so far, most of which have been deleted.

Thanks for the pep talk..
02-04-2011, 07:00 PM - 1 Like   #126
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I have given up on attempting to submit a photo for one of the "exclusive" galleries after reading the comments on the last rejection. The photo I had submitted was one I took of one of our "resident" Florida gators beside the large lake at a golf course I frequent. I took the photo while standing between two gators, the one being photographed and a smaller one that was not sleeping. The gator I was photographing was laying beside the water which was at a low level thus exposing an area around the lake which would normally be submerged which was also hidden from view unless one was walking beside the lake on the normal golf playing surface. I took the photo from the only vantage point possible without becoming lunch for one or the other of the gators. Mother Nature was controlling the light, I did not have any studio lighting equipment with me nor was there any place to plug it into power if I had brought some. Unfortunately, our gators are for the most part, black in color.

Why am I mentioning this? Because whomever judged my submittal is or was totally out of touch with life out of a studio!! Among the comments given were the following: "flat colors, harsh lighting, ordinary perspective....the focus on the head is off". Having thought it over, the rewards of having a photo selected are just not worth the effort of getting a photo that the judges will not reject. It's not like there was some monetary award on the line or some other tangeable award that could be displayed with the photo in a person's home or office. And for what it's worth, the photos that were rejected here have gotten rave reviews from co-workers or those that have seen them on display at work. I think the judges need to step outside and take a good look at reality without PhotoShop, tripods, mono-pods, or studio lighting gear.
02-05-2011, 04:40 AM   #127
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AFAIK, PEG is not about studio photography. Just look at the images in the gallery if there is any doubt about this. While good shots can be made without the use of any post-processing software wouldn't it be advantageous even from a submission point if view to improve the look of an image as best as you can - wouldn't this increase the chances of having more of an impact and thus being approved in any given gallery?

Whilst co-workers opinions are one yardstick to go by, this doesn't imply an excellent image. The word exclusive should mean something in that the gallery should contain images that are unique, technically sound, decently presented and also evoke emotion in the viewer. That of course would be one person's opinion and not representative of others. But IMO these aspects should all be in harmony for an image to stand out and be considered 'exclusive'. Any missing component should have an overarching compensatory 'wow' factor for such a 'deficiency' to be overlooked.

Just my .02 worth...

02-05-2011, 04:55 AM   #128
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I might just add that if there is a place to find stunning photography to get a feel for work of high standards, I'd suggest to check out 1x.com and DPChallenge. Those sites showcase amazing images that take photography (as well as PP) to the next level.
02-05-2011, 04:34 PM   #129
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Well the next photo I submit will be taken with 100% Pentax gear - camera and lens. The photos I had previously submitted had been taken using a non-Pentax lens which is completely manual. My other lenses are either SMC Pentax-DA or SMC Pentax-FA lenses that I purchased new. Mounting the camera to my tripod and using the remote will eliminate any motion that may have been induced and will insure (thanks to the bubble level) that everything is properly lined up. I'm going to clean the sensor before the shoot to insure there's no dust in anything so the judges won't have to magnify the photo to 800X to look for "dust in the upper right". In Auto Mode, the camera controls the flash so the lighting should be "perfect" as defined by Pentax as should the focus.
02-05-2011, 04:45 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by thoughton Quote

- Subject of image too small in the frame to appreciate it well. The hazy capture is not much to look at.
- Nice mood, very subtle!
- Just love it - typical for the weather here, this winter :-)!

The first comment made me smile. Perhaps I should have zoomed in on the man, and waited until a sunny day
They assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the person with the stroller really was the subject of your photo and not just part of the photo where the real subject was the trees in the mist... Sometimes I think the judges make assumptions about what they think the photographer was thinking and intending to have as the subject of his/her photo. What they miss is that sometimes we will take a photo because the scene sets a given mood or inspires us and we wish to capture it so we can preserve it knowing that such a scene will disappear forever all too soon.
02-05-2011, 05:13 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by whitelotus9 Quote
Well the next photo I submit will be taken with 100% Pentax gear - camera and lens. The photos I had previously submitted had been taken using a non-Pentax lens which is completely manual. My other lenses are either SMC Pentax-DA or SMC Pentax-FA lenses that I purchased new. Mounting the camera to my tripod and using the remote will eliminate any motion that may have been induced and will insure (thanks to the bubble level) that everything is properly lined up. I'm going to clean the sensor before the shoot to insure there's no dust in anything so the judges won't have to magnify the photo to 800X to look for "dust in the upper right". In Auto Mode, the camera controls the flash so the lighting should be "perfect" as defined by Pentax as should the focus.
While humerous I don't quite understand the hidden message behind this satirical post. None of this is being claimed as prerequisites for good photography. Though again I wonder, if a captured image is worth submitting into a gallery, why wouldn't it be appropriate to remove dust specks, level the horizon (if indicated) and improve contrast & colours (as required to boost their desired effect)?

Last edited by Ash; 02-06-2011 at 03:48 AM.
02-05-2011, 05:37 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
While humerous I don't quite understand the hidden message behind this satirical post. None of this is being claimed as prerequisites for good photography. Though again I wonder, if a captured image is worth submitting into a gallery. why wouldn't it be appropriate to remove dust specks, level the horizon (if indicated) and improve contrast & colours (as required to boost their desired effect)?
Well if I could see the dust specks, I'd try to remove them! But then again I do not examine my photos at 500x or greater magnification looking for dust specks.

The hidden message that my post was intended to make is that if an all Pentax photo using the camera's computer to adjust/control focus, lighting (via the pop-up flash), etc. should remove most of the arguments made by the judges to a photo making it into PEG. If such a photo will not make it into PEG, then it would be shown that PP must be employed to get a photo into PEG.

I thought that PEG was supposed to showcase a photographer's best photos...
02-05-2011, 06:45 PM   #133
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PEG submissions are usually low res images in the first place. If a dust speck can be seen on a submission at any magnification, it's worth taking out. This is a moot point.

It has always been asserted that both PPG and PEG are photographers' galleries. I cannot find much evidence to the contrary. But as mentioned a number of times here, the gallery is only as good as both the submissions and to a lesser extent the voters. Voters can comment on their opinions through the feedback system, but there isn't the subsequent need to have to justify these opinions. Indeed, some issues with submissions may be difficult to articulate, and feedback perceived as inaccurate or unsatisfactory by the submitter.

Whatever the deficiency of the feedback process, understand that it takes more than one vote to get an image decided upon. But it only takes one feedback statement of concern and suddenly the voting system is deemed flawed. The consensus is a good way to get appropriate judgement and this should be appreciated.
02-05-2011, 09:16 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
PEG submissions are usually low res images in the first place. If a dust speck can be seen on a submission at any magnification, it's worth taking out. This is a moot point.

It has always been asserted that both PPG and PEG are photographers' galleries. I cannot find much evidence to the contrary. But as mentioned a number of times here, the gallery is only as good as both the submissions and to a lesser extent the voters. Voters can comment on their opinions through the feedback system, but there isn't the subsequent need to have to justify these opinions. Indeed, some issues with submissions may be difficult to articulate, and feedback perceived as inaccurate or unsatisfactory by the submitter.

Whatever the deficiency of the feedback process, understand that it takes more than one vote to get an image decided upon. But it only takes one feedback statement of concern and suddenly the voting system is deemed flawed. The consensus is a good way to get appropriate judgement and this should be appreciated.
IMHO, the judges' opinions SHOULD be required to be justifiable. If they knew up front that they would have to provide justifiable reasons why a given photo was not "good enough" to make the PEG, I think we'd have much better judgment. Granted, it might slow things down a bit because they would have to show where exactly the dust spots were or "flaws".... In the case of the photo of the trees in the mist with the small person and stroller, what a judge used as rejection criterion might have been an unintentional presence to the photographer. His/Her intended "subject" may have really been the trees in the mist and not the small person. And if the photographer had intended to take or produce a softly focus of the subject (a pigeon, a palm warbler, a flower, etc.) to obtain a given affect, then who are the judges to tell the photographer that his/her photo isn't good enough because it isn't sharply enough focused? The same applies to just about any effect in a given photo, the photographer may have worked both in the field and in the "darkroom" to obtain a given result only to have the judges decide that result is detracting and should keep the photo from going into PEG.

Would it detract from the process to ask the photographer to describe his/her intentions when taking or PP the photo at the time of submittal then taking that into account when doing the judging? And would it detract from the process to require accountability for the judges?

When there is no accountability and no meeting of the minds for the judging, then the system is badly flawed...
02-06-2011, 01:35 AM   #135
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Let me make this clear: questioning judge comments matters naught - it is neither frowned upon nor praised. If for any of my comments the sense of defensiveness is being conveyed then please accept my apologies and retraction of any remarks of this nature.

Furthermore I would also like to make *very* clear that whatever is posted under my name is personal opinion only and is neither authoritative nor representative in this forum and for PEG.

There is no mandatory commenting for PEG feedback, and this is how I perceive the non-requirement of justification for votes to be. How would it be if PEG voting went the same way as PPG voting? I would wager that there would be less disgruntlement and more shooting.

Nevertheless, we've come full circle in this very thread with this - see here, here, here (where I foresaw what would come from discussing voters' comments), here and back here on feedback becoming the problem rather than the solution, then the corollary argument from another member here. I've even gone as far as putting it to Adam to make feedback more practically useful to the submitter here: PEG voting feedback. So I think I've flogged this horse hard enough, and this is no one-man show, so I'll have no further input on this very matter here.

Last edited by Ash; 02-06-2011 at 04:08 AM.
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