[boriscleto]

It seem to me that the PEG is a massive waste of time. It has become nothing more than an exclusive clique that doesn't want to let anyone else in. It's original reason for existence, PPG being Flash based and slow, has been remedied.

I'll just go back to forgetting that PEG even exists.

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Last edited by boriscleto; 05-25-2012 at 06:39 PM.

[jpzk]

I hadn't submitted any photos to the exclusive gallery in quite a while. Although I have some in there from when the gallery was new, I still haven't a clue what, if anything, the judges are looking for. I submitted this one because I really liked the softness and the dreamy quality it had.
The comments (except for the "great shot", "beautiful" type that are always included with any feedback) I was told it needed to be cropped and it was too bad the birds legs were so dark (the bird has black legs) and too bad the stump was too dark. Against my better judgement, I cropped the darn thing and tried to lighten those black legs and the stump without blowing out highlights and the comment came back saying they liked it better without the crop. See the second shot. I am going to have to learn to photograph bugs I guess.

I actually like the non-cropped version, although I would have liked to have the bird-stump a little "closer", but that's my opinion.

In my books, this would have been accepted at the PEG.
I do lots of bird shots and I always try to include part of the bird environment, which you did.
Granted, close up shots of wildlife are always nice to see but what really counts is to place the "species" in its environment.
Nicely done job and I also like the softness of the scene.

Cheers!

JP

[jpzk]

Don't lose confidence because a photo is rejected, it's all just subjective. This one of mine was rejected a couple of days ago, I still like it though:

I am a wildife-sort-of photographer ... 90% of the time, so this photo really did make an impact for me.
I have attempted, many, many times, to get portrait shots such as yours here but never really could succeed.

This is a definite winner.

JP

[slowpez]

I actually like the non-cropped version, although I would have liked to have the bird-stump a little "closer", but that's my opinion.

In my books, this would have been accepted at the PEG.
I do lots of bird shots and I always try to include part of the bird environment, which you did.
Granted, close up shots of wildlife are always nice to see but what really counts is to place the "species" in its environment.
Nicely done job and I also like the softness of the scene.

Cheers!

JP

Thanks JP. I appreciate your kind comments.

[Ash]

My personal opinion is that the PEG has been a bit of a failure, and the lack of sensible comments by the judges is the prime reason for that.

It has been iterated again and again: PEG voter feedback is a voluntary medium to advise submitters on the chief reason(s) for voting the way the voters did. It is not, I repeat, it is NOT purposed to provide critique on the image - that wis what the Photo Critique form is for. There needs to be an understanding that even comments such as "Good shot" or "I like it except for..." are to be taken in the light that they were given - by the individual voters, who will not all agree on their interpretation and liking of the submissions. There is no compulsion in the feedback process, and being someone who regularly comments on voted images, seeing this kind of comment strongly discourages me from contributing in this manner in the future.

Ash, there is one judge who sometimes provides feedback worthwhile, while the others are often rude and dismissive making the person on the receiving end wonder if its personal. This has nothing to do with being rejected. If it is going to be anonymous judges then it should work in both directions, submitter and judge should both be anonymous. And as a former educator, I know it doesn't take too many words to provide positive critical feedback and at the same time reject an image for the PEG.

Tess, I appreciate it can be frustrating. I for one ensure that at least a constructive comment is made on feedback, but cannot vouch for others and agree that rejection is not as much the issue as the way in which submissions are rejected. I made a plea a year or so ago to ask for PEG feedback to me made mandatory, and the problem with that became the already strained responsibilities on existing voters that such an extra responsibility would negatively affect the overall voting process. Clearly, if there were more voters on board, then this may be alleviated somewhat. And on that note, I'd suggest anyone who is interested in taking up a PEG voting job - sounds like many of the members voicing out here - should approach Adam with their personal 'CV'.

It is a certainty that the PEG voting process is anonymous, UNLESS the submission contains a watermark that is identifiable with the name or logo or the artist.

Some of the pictures that have been accepted have since received an average vote of less than 3 stars from the PEG voters. Do you think that is significant? I do.

Definitely not. Those star ratings mean nothing. Anyone can decide to give a 1 star rating for whatever reason and bring the average down as a result. I've mentioned that before at least a couple of times on this thread already.

I will be happy to give thoughtful appraisal when the judges themselves give thoughtful appraisal.

This is not helpful. Consider not saying anything at all...

I've just noticed a little hair on the hood that needs cloning. I go off my own shots very quickly but I do quite like that one. The most important thing though is not whether it is accepted into a gallery but that I have a nice photo of my son to keep.

Your image is worth resubmitting Dr Orloff. Your own observation would give the next submission a better opportunity for a thumbs up.

I have a picture of a house sparrow which is poorly rated. Fair enough, I'd rather have the portrait in there, but birds and insects seem to be what most judges prefer.

Disregard those star ratings - they reflect noting of the voter's yes/no votes. Portraits are a tough medium for PEG, I agree. None of my own portrait submissions have gone through, despite considering them more compelling than some of my own landscapes. There are indeed a lot of macro images getting through, and it reflects how many macros are being submitted. I'll forever say that the gallery is only ever going to be as good as its submissions. So I encourage everyone with their compelling images to submit them to the gallery.

[Ash]

So much for wildlife photography in a natural environment.

These got comments like "Lacks image quality" "Too much noise" and "Lacks sharpness". Sorry for not having * glass.

Boris, sorry to say, but why should you consider PEG to be a 'waste of time' when you complain about images as the above not being accepted? If you cannot see the issues with these images, then I'm afraid you're wasting your own time (and I say this as cordially as it can come out on screen).

Perhaps consider these nature images and see what makes them work better (and note that these are not my own images):

Fabs Forns:

Claudine:

Lise De Serres:

Alina M:

Matej Vranic:

And just for completion, some compelling portraits (also not my own):

Bill Gekas:

Balaji Maheshwar:

Patrizia Burra:

[Dr Orloff]

I won't be resubmitting the image. If there were improvements to be made that would have meant the image being accepted then they would (or at least should) have been mentioned, but the stray hair wasn't. The blurry hood isn't something that bothers me and I can't do anything about it anyway It's just that tastes are different here, birds and insects seem to be highly favoured. I have a PPG Collection portrait and a 1x landscape that were rejected in the PEG and yet my sparrow, for instance, wouldn't stand an eartly chance of being accepted in those other galleries.

I don't think the PEG is an exclusive clique though, that's rather unfair since admissions are anonymous. I don't think that many of the the best images in the user gallery are even submitted to the PEG.

[Ash]

Dr Orloff, I agree. The fact that there are great images out there that aren't being submitted means PEG itself will be limited to whatever is left around the forum. I'd strongly encourage those who know they have compelling images to submit them to the gallery. It would be a refreshing change.

[tessfully]

Boris, sorry to say, but why should you consider PEG to be a 'waste of time' when you complain about images as the above not being accepted? If you cannot see the issues with these images, then I'm afraid you're wasting your own time (and I say this as cordially as it can come out on screen).

Perhaps consider these nature images and see what makes them work better (and note that these are not my own images):

Fabs Forns:

Claudine:

Lise De Serres:

Alina M:

Matej Vranic:

And just for completion, some compelling portraits (also not my own):

Bill Gekas:

Balaji Maheshwar:

Patrizia Burra:

wow, beautiful breath-taking images for sure, but I don't think they work any better than Dr. Orloff's or Susan's latest entries, also extremely special.

Dr Orloff, I agree. The fact that there are great images out there that aren't being submitted means PEG itself will be limited to whatever is left around the forum. I'd strongly encourage those who know they have compelling images to submit them to the gallery. It would be a refreshing change.

Ash, while the images I submitted to the PEG may be considered stale, I find many of the rejections in this thread very compelling and refreshing, especially the last two of which I am most familiar now. I find your last line an inadvertent insult to everyone who has ever dared to submit a photo.

On another note, I did not realize submissions were anonymous unless watermarked with one's name. Thanks for the clarification.


... just a rhetorical thought to no one in particular, It seems that levelling criticism at the PEG process leads those who support it to say "well then, apply to become a judge" ... that is very ironic... how can people who see compelling and refreshing in the mass of rejects be qualified to judge?

Well, I dipped my toe into this area of the Pentax Forum life and find the water too cold for my liking. I know, no big loss for the PEG. Good luck with the project.

[whitelotus9]

Ash, against my better judgement, I submitted a recently taken photo of an old Episcopal chapel initially to the Photo Critique forum and made suggested corrections. It then received rave comments so I submitted it to PEG where I was initially told that it was still "tilted" so I further adjusted the angle causing further cropping and resubmitted the image. It was again rejected for the following reasons....

Nice little church but composition is not very dynamic.
Inappropriate forPEG. Limited interest. Uninteresting perspective and lighting.

What I find very interesting about this particular photo is that I have received rave comments from my friends and co-workers who have seen it gracing my computer screens as wallpaper. I also have a "Best of Class" rosette for the image from an employee art show and contect I entered it in. Everyone I've shown it to thinks it should be on a picture postcard. But it's not good enough for PEG because one or more judges do not like it.

I had previously submitted a macro photo of a flower that I had worked quite hard on only to receive the following as the reason for rejection: "OOF" I guess some judges can't even be troubled to write out their complaint, they have to resort to some acronym thinking everyone on the planet knows what they meen. For What It's Worth (FWIW), that photo when zoomed in was "spot on" focus wise if the observer knew what they were really looking at/for. I had examined the blossom in great detail after taking and viewing the photo while still at the gardens so I knew it was in focus.

And with regard to the comment Tess reitterated that people that criticize PEG should "apply to become a judge"....I did so and have yet to hear anything about that application.

To be honest, there is far too little "bang for the buck" for having a photo accepted into PEG. If there were to be a vote on whether to keep or shut down PEG, I would have to vote to shut it down and not replace it. That would also reduce the disk space footprint that this site requires and thus reduce the costs to maintain the site. And from what I've seen, a large number of this site's members are thinking similarly...close Peg!!

[Ash]

PEG is not designed to give any bang for any buck invested in it, nor does it give any recognition other than being an image the forum voters considers as compelling enough for the gallery.

As for becoming a voter, clearly not everyone who applies will be given the task, and ultimately it's Adam's decision who he would like to work in that appraisal team. I don't find it ironic to suggest well seasoned and talented members apply for such a position - it would enrich the forum all the more and make the voting process even more acceptable.

[thoughton]

Definitely not. Those star ratings mean nothing. Anyone can decide to give a 1 star rating for whatever reason and bring the average down as a result. I've mentioned that before at least a couple of times on this thread already.

I entirely disagree. Those star ratings are all from people who have had PEG images accepted. On the whole they are all highly experienced photographers who clearly have the ability to produce excellent photographs. Most of us are adults, I don't think anyone is giving out unjustified 1 star ratings. Why would we? And if we are what makes you so sure the judges aren't doing the same?

This is not helpful. Consider not saying anything at all...

Not really sure what to say about that. I'm a member of this forum and I believe I have the right to be critical of the PEG process. I'm not being insulting or using foul language.

Don't you wonder why there are better images in the user galleries than there are in the PEG? I'll take a guess and say it's something to do with the wildly varying standard of judging. Some truly outstanding pictures get rejected for spurious reasons yet so many good-but-hardly-noteworthy pictures do get accepted. Dr Orloff's portrait is a prime example, I mean c'mon, out of focus hood? That's simply ridiculous.

Yet I look through the 5 pages of the PEG and while on the whole they are very good photographs, I can see several photos which wouldn't even have earned my 'Yes' vote in the PPG.

[Ash]

No. User gallery images are usually not submitted to PEG. It shouldn't be assumed that user gallery images are just those that were not accepted into PEG. Furthermore, the star ratings are the ratings that all members (not just judges) make on the images - those who even care to vote. I cannot recall the last time I left a star rating on an image. I rather leave comments on photos instead. But you know, I agree with you about the voting process, thoughton. It's so imperfect it's not funny. But it's the best we've got in a democratic process based on varied ideas on what makes a good photograph. If you have constructive suggestions to improve the process, perhaps raise them and Adam might entertain the idea. You just never know...

[thoughton]

No. Unless something has changed recently only members with PEG acceptances can vote in the PEG gallery.

I have already (months ago) PMed Adam with my suggestions (actually it was just one, but I thought it was a great idea :P)

Perhaps I wasn't clear about the User gallery point. I know they aren't all PEG rejects. I was just saying that there are some great images in people's user galleries that they do not submit to the PEG due to the random judging.

[whitelotus9]

They could be electing to not submit their photos to PEG because they do not want to put up with the inconsistant judging and they do not see being accepted into PEG as being worth their effort or time. When one considers that what sets PEG apart from the other galleries here is the imperfect and inconsistant judging, why bother? One day Adam will wake up when the alarm goes off and while he's enjoying his morning cup of coffee or tea, he'll realize that this site could be improved by eliminating PEG and he would have a lot less stress and complaints from this site's membership by eliminating PEG. Having a photo accepted into PEG matters not outside of this forum...that is the reality of it.