[Ash]

So sad. Reality is that there will always be a segment of the community that will be unhappy with a gallery with more voting transparency than just about any other curator-judged gallery. There's more to complain about. My suggestion to Adam would be to make PEG even less subject to such scrutiny by taking voter comments away just like PPG and 1x.com

[thoughton]

Erm, there are comments on both PPG and 1x.com... 1x in particular has dozens of comments on every photo.

Edit: Excuse me, I didn't see 'voter' in your post until now.

Anyway, nothing to be "So Sad" about Ash. It's just some honest critique. i'm sure Adam can take it.

[Ash]

Comments vs voter feedback, thoughton...
Neither PPG nor 1x.com give any feedback on decisions made on submissions. Comments are permitted by any member but those do not relate to the admission process, and this is no different to PEG.
I think I'm done with this issue. I'm nobody to make any authoritative remark about PEG. And I don't envy Adam one bit trying to create a fine resource, as this forum is, for the benefit and virtue of all interested.

[thoughton]

That's not quite true actually. You do get some feedback from 1x. It's about the same as the PEG, I've received between 0 and 5 comments on photos I've submitted.

Also, as I already stated earlier, only some people can comment on PEG photos, not everyone. It's not relevant but we might as well be accurate.

[thoughton]

Also, you seem to have confused our criticism of the PEG judging with criticism of this forum. I think most people are able to distinguish one from the other.

[Ash]

No feedback from 1x.com for any of my 10 images rejected from their gallery. I wouldn't be asserting this if it weren't accurate...

I don't believe I'm confusing anything. But I am done with this discussion...

[thoughton]

Shrug, what can I say. I have received feedback on some of my rejections.

[tessfully]

Ash, in my opinion, without clear judging criteria and a clear and agreed upon judging process the PEG has little relevance or credibility in the real world of photographic exclusivity. Right now it depends only upon the subjective opinion of anonymous judges who cannot be held accountable for their decisions. Posting a bunch of lovely pictures as examples of what makes a great photo (in your opinion) is not a set of criteria for all of us wannabes.

To be truly valuable for both the members of this forum and the wider audience you hope to attract to the Pentax product, the PEG needs a set of judging criteria laid out with a rating check box system, as well as a general comment section at the end.

Standardize the process.

To be a judge on an exclusive gallery one should not only be qualified (another set of standards that should be developed and applied) but the judge must have the time and the interest to deal with each member's submission. If they don't have time for this then they should not be a judge in the first place.

If this is serious business as you are claiming it to be, then it needs to be taken much more professionally by those of you behind the scenes. The Ad Hoc approach is not going to make the gallery famous.

Here is an EXAMPLE sheet for judging I drew up quickly (just an example, needs expert input). Whatever set of criteria and whatever judging process is developed must be made available to all prospective PEG artists by posting it on the submissions page:

PEG JUDGING FORM

A great picture should be at least as good as what is photographed, perhaps better, and even something the viewer could not conceive of in the first place.

RATE BETWEEN 1 (poor) to 5 (excellent)



1. a. Technical Excellence (Check box)

1. 2. 3. 4. 5.

Composition
Focus
Colour
Light
Etc.



1. b. Post Processing

Contrast
Saturation
Sharpness
Etc.

2. Impact (this is where clearly defined criteria needs to be agreed upon and established by the Pentax administration.

Originality
Immediate Impact
Lasting Impression
Etc.

3. Comments

____________________________________

____________________________________

_____________________________________


Thank you for your submission.

The Pentax Forum Judging Team


I am going to forward this post to Adam.

cheers all,
tess

[Dr Orloff]

It's a really tricky one. An exclusive gallery is a great idea. There is always going to be disagreement about decisions made and feedback given. I don't think they should be held accountable - why? Maybe though, there could be an expert who scrutinises a judge's aptitude for the job.

I don't like the idea of a ratings system. It would be time consuming and for me there are too many intangibles about a photo which cannot (and should not) be analysed in such a tickbox way. For example, how does a deliberately defocused mood piece rate on focus. And it's difficult to categorise so many emotional aspects of the mood that a great mage can conjure; pathos, mystery, joy. nostalgia, ad infinitum and those things are individual to the viewer.

It's a two way process as well. Photographers also have a responsibility to submit work that is of a high standard. I look back through this thread at some of the rejections and can't understand why they were submitted at all.

I don't think a judge's comments should be taken as critical. Rather an explanation of the reason for rejection, which is just an individual opinion. I've never had a quibble with an image being rejected, the only crticism I have about the comments I have received on my rejections is that often there isn't enough negative feedback. I've had acceptances with some negative feedback but rejections with only positive feedback. I'm not looking for a detailed critique. Just 'I find it boring' for example, would do for me.

[tessfully]

I appreciate your comments Dr. Orloff.

I strongly feel there must be some kind of a standard and regime developed that creates a playing field in the first place. If not a rating system, then something less opaque than what is present now. There are standards set out for everything in life that is competitive, be it school, sports or the arts. To my way of thinking, for me anyway, that is what would provide relative and professional meaning to the gallery.

But, I wasn't trying to stir up controversy, just add suggestions that come out of my background.

edit to add... I am also asking the questions, what is it the administration wants to achieve with this gallery? The answer should guide the level of professionalism applied to the judging standards and procedures.

okay, now I am truly out of here

[Adam]

They way the photos are judged right now is on a simple pass/fail basis. I just got an idea- what if our judges, rather than having to say yes or no, simply had to rate a photo in terms of criteria such as composition, technicalities, and personal appeal? Those three categories could then be weighted internally and the system would let a photo in one certain criteria have been met.

[atupdate]

Just 'I find it boring' for example, would do for me

That is probably the hardest feedback to give. Even when given anonymously.

Tim

[Ash]

Ratings help standardise the process, but leaves a number of other X-factor-like criteria out of the equation. Personal appeal might be where something like that lies, and there might be a technically flawless image that has little personal appeal that would get through on the balance of ratings. I fully appreciate your input Tess, and agree that the process isn't as robust as it could be, but judging on images is not like marking an exam paper. Artistic interpretations make it more difficult to give a point score, but it would certainly help with much of the ambiguity on the other end.

Tim, I agree - some submitters would take that comment for what it is, and others would vehemently react to it. The voting process for weekly challenges or monthly competitions doesn't have the same kind of backlash I'm guessing because PEG is held in higher accord. Nevertheless, great images are great images and it would be good to see them submitted and get through.

Finally, Dr Orloff, you have been the most cordial in this discussion given the high standard of your previous rejections. Thanks for your contributions.

[whitelotus9]

I for one feel that any one judge rejecting a photo because "I find it boring" should not be grounds for rejectiion. Just because one judge finds a given photo boring does not mean several other judges would also find it boring. The way it is, quite a few works of the art world's masters would have been rejected because someone felt them boring. While it would slow down the judging process quite a bit, I would like to see a "Judge's Chatroom" added to this site and for the judges to meet as a group or at least a quorum of an odd number of judges who would all view each photo at the same time and discuss it then vote whether to accept or reject that photo. If they vote to reject, they should provide their reasons for rejection.

One thing that Dr. Orloff touched upon but which may not be presently factored into the judging is the photographer's intentions when taking a given photo...that should also be part of the submission and taken into consideration in the voting. If a photographer purposefully defocused a photo to capture a given feeling of the scene being captured, that photo should not be able to be rejected due to it being out of focus. A photographer might also be responding to a customer's request for a special effect or style of a given image and the resulting photo completely met the requested criterion...and the photographer elected to submit that photo. BTW, customer here does not automatically mean paying customer so the photographer would not be considered a professional paid photographer. In this case, the photographer's ability to capture the scene and post process the photo to meet the requested criterion would be the contributing factors to the submittal.

In these cases, again not all of the judges might feel a "WOW" affect from the photo but isn't PEG intended to showcase the photographer's ability and the best work of the submitting photographers? YES it is and that is another area where PEG is falling on it's stated purpose...is a given photo the best example of the given photographer? If a photographer submits 10 photos over the course of 6 months, and if the feedback of the judges is taken to heart and incorporated, there should be an improvement in the quality of that photographer's work with time. His/Her best work should then be admitted. Not everyone has the talents, abilities, monetary resources to buy top of the line equipment and/or software, etc. To compare the work of someone that has the best of everything against the work of someone trying to eek by on a frayed shoestring is very unfair!!

I will say that a photo should have to be submitted to the Photo Critique forum prior to being submitted for consideration for PEG. If the photo receives PEG submittal recommendations in the Photo Critique area, then it should be able to be submitted to PEG. If a photo can't cut it in the Photo Critique area where the photographer is permitted to interact with those that choose to comment, then it probably shouldn't be submitted for PEG. Granted, there will almost never be 100% agreement in any forum of any given photo's acceptance... Not everyone likes the painting of the Mona Lisa...

[Dr Orloff]

If only one judge finds the photo boring then it won't be rejected. If an image had to be accepted on technical prowess alone then the gallery would be chock a block full of highly competent but documentary style macros. But people complain about that too. Technical prowess alone makes a good photo but rarely a great photo. Instead of boring read 'no wow factor' which is the same thing put in a diplomatic way.

A chatroom for images is not a bad idea, it could be restricted to borderline images but provide somewhere to discuss a rejection which a judge feels whould have been accepted or an acceptance which a judge feels should have been rejected.

A vetting process through critique is also a good idea but it might put people of submitting. I'm not sure I'd bother as I generally submit images that have been received well on other forums/galleries. I think the challenge is to get the best PF images submitted to the PEG.

I also think people are sometimes too touchy about their rejections. If you think a rejection is really good enough then submit it to other galleries. If it gets accepted at 1x, the PPG Collection, is highly rated on 500pix or elsewhere, has won a competition then maybe it should have been accepted in the PEG and that would be well worth discussing here. Judges will make wrong decisions (inevitable in a subjective process) but I think there needs to be a little more justification to confidently say (or imply) that they got it wrong than just liking one's own photo.