[Couscousdelight]

Very good point, I agree entirely.

The problem with the PEG is not too many bird shots but a lack of shots in other genres.

Hi,
Well, "other genres" are sometimes so far from academism than you will surely never see one in P.E.G.. ! It's not really a question of creativity here because you have first to respond to a bunch of academic rules to make a "acceptable shot" (acceptable by academic standards, of course )...
I don't understand that academism, like working with overaged compositing rules coming from 1905's photobook manual... Why working with such limits when today's cameras give us the possibilities to go widely beyond such rules ? For me, academism and creativity are paradoxal, and P.E.G. restrict the access to amazing shots because of that academism.

And, P.E.G. looks a little bit like a private club for wich the members try to stay "very exclusive" by restricting the number of P.E.G. members, regardless of picture quality. Anyway, for me the P.E.G.'s concept is broken because of the submission system, and the protectionism of the members.

Franc's picture should be in the gallery, that's all. It deserves to be here, it shows the excellence of Pentax stuff and the skills of the photographer, and at my eyes, it's far better than a lot of shots already present in the gallery.

Regards,
Arno

[Couscousdelight]

By the way, there is a article which was published on Dpreview today, a interesting read for sure :
Breaking the Rules: Digital Photography Review

Regards,
Arno

[Ash]

Arno, there was a consensus decision on that image, as there has been to many other images. You believe the image should be admitted into PEG, so did some of the judges. But there were enough negative votes not to have the image admitted to the gallery, and we should accept that overall decision and push the boundaries with the next submission.

This is not about creating an exclusive 'club' of preferred members admitted to the club, it is about getting a widely accepted group of images to exemplify what Pentaxians can capture with their gear. Breaking the rules is not discouraged just because in the judging criteria the image must be technically excellent. But clearly, there is more than technical and artistic creativity that is considered.

[Dr Orloff]

Hi,
Well, "other genres" are sometimes so far from academism than you will surely never see one in P.E.G.. ! It's not really a question of creativity here because you have first to respond to a bunch of academic rules to make a "acceptable shot" (acceptable by academic standards, of course )...
I don't understand that academism, like working with overaged compositing rules coming from 1905's photobook manual... Why working with such limits when today's cameras give us the possibilities to go widely beyond such rules ? For me, academism and creativity are paradoxal, and P.E.G. restrict the access to amazing shots because of that academism.

And, P.E.G. looks a little bit like a private club for wich the members try to stay "very exclusive" by restricting the number of P.E.G. members, regardless of picture quality. Anyway, for me the P.E.G.'s concept is broken because of the submission system, and the protectionism of the members.

Franc's picture should be in the gallery, that's all. It deserves to be here, it shows the excellence of Pentax stuff and the skills of the photographer, and at my eyes, it's far better than a lot of shots already present in the gallery.

Regards,
Arno

Since the procedure is anonymous then it is difficult to see how your accusation can have any credibility. I have had some images accepted but also some rejected, in fact I consider my rejections to be my better photographs. Also, the ratings system is only for people who have made it into the PEG and often photos are poorly rated, which wouldn't be the case if nepotism was involved.

I disagree too that creativity has no place there. It is up to forum members to submit more creative images. I would say that the majority of images on this thread are understandable rejections.

[normhead]

I gave up on the PEG before I even entered an image as I recall. If that is the intent, the the judges are doing a marvellous job. I usually stay out of this thread as well. IN real life, I wouldn't go to a gallery that doesn't rotate it's images on a regular basis. Why should I make an exception for the Pentax forum? It's not about the pictures. It's a contest where you try and please a bunch of judges. The Pentax version of the beauty pageant. ANother set of judges, and you'd have different images. I guess my question would be, why does this set of judges done to convince me I care about their opinions? It's odd that the judges set themselves up to select the images, but who selects the judges? I have some education on the values of evaluation... papers marked on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon don't stand a chance. Math papers, marked by whole teams of markers get marks from failures to A's. Winning a contest based on picture quality is as much about winning the evaluation lottery as it is about the quality of the picture. So I don't put my pictures into these things for the same reason I don't play the lottery. Your chances aren't good, and it doesn't mean anything win or lose, except in the lottery you get money.

In something real, like sports, after you lose, you look at your game and analyze what you've need to improve... in many of these PEG type things, you look at the results, and you say, "well, I like my image better than the one that won" and I can explain why. And I wouldn't spend 5 minutes of my time altering a shot so it would meet the criteria for inclusion. Another site I go to, the guy goes through every pictures posted to the site to pick the PotM. So when you're elected, it's an un-expected honour, as opposed to the un-expected put-down one gets from PEG. And even though the site is much smaller, his PotMs are IMO always better than the ones on this site, even though it has a fraction of the submissions. The guy just has a great eye for what makes a great photograph.

Of the yearly contests I've investigated, for almost all of them, I look at the winning images from previous contests, and realize, I wouldn't want to be the one to have taken that image. So, where does that leave me? Quite happy, and looking forward to my coming gallery show. If these things cause you unhappiness.. just stay away from them. It works for me.

[nanok]

Thanks Dr Orloff for taking the time to look at this. I will be the first to acknowledge this photo has many flaws and on balance probably deserves to be rejected. This is not in question. Taking this whole exercise as a learning opportunity, I can use most of the feedback to improve this photo somewhat and also my photography in general. This is after all my main purpose in being a member of Pentax Forums in the first place.

I can work on the composition.
I can work on the exposure and colour saturation.
I can't do much about a perfect stranger carrying a bag on a beach. I do understand the intent behind that criticism. The photo would be better without it but that's life.

What I am asking for help on is the "No Check your horizon. Your water is running out of the frame to the right." (...)

i suppose (hope) it should be clear by now: please ignore that comment, people make mistakes. your horizon is level for any practical intent or purpose, you can stop worrying about it, but that's not enough to make or break a picture.

[Franc]

gave another test shot at PEG to see if anything has changed since the last one.



It was rejected, off course, but this time with a lot of comments:

Judge comments, if applicable:
*********************
Below you will find comments on your photo. You might want to re-submit an edited version of your photo depending on the circumstances!

Beautiful!
------------------
excellent detail
------------------
Lighting, composition, background...great.
------------------
A very nice bird . Love the clarity of your subject!
I feel that you could work a little bit on how you frame the bird - maybe a little too much empty space on the right? Have more of the bird rather than the background.
------------------
Very nice image
------------------
It is more than just a nice bird, it's a very well photographed nice bird. The depth of field is well controlled, with both everything in focus that needs to be and well isolated from the background. It's not an easy background but it has been very well controlled. The exposure is bang on for me.

The captive bird of prey on a post is a crowded genre. Maybe this isn't the best I've seen in that genre, the background is well handled and it is what is is but it could be more attractive. But this is a very fine example of the genre.

The 'but' here of course is the way the photo is truncated at the bottom, The bird's tail is just cut off and there isn't enough post. This unbalances an otherwise textbook composition. But this image is clearly the work of a very accomplished photographer and I don't think it was accidental. My hunch is that maybe there was something in the way that was the greater of two evils and cutting off the tail was calculated. That would be just tough luck. My second hunch is that this 'error' is a test for the judges. Either way, I have to mark it down.

My name is (deleted by me). Whether you agree or disagree entirely with my judging I am happy to discuss it should you so wish. Thanks for your submission.
------------------
Great Composition and timing. White bohek is a bit distracting but overall a very good shot
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Missed focus, eye a little soft, no pop,composition good, some dead space for the bird to to into
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Nice pic, but looking for the sharp eye focus.
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Although your technique/composition is superb the picture itself is just exactly what you said in your submission description, "just a nice bird" and the PEG has lots of similar pictures.
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Just an overall great image of this bird. Very sharp details from beak to claw!
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Clear, sharp, perfect contrast. The bird has a nice pose.
As a standalone picture I think it is unbalanced (too little space in front of the bird, too much on the right).
As a magazine cover it would be perfect, with space for text to the right.
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A nice bird well placed in the frame, with a good almost monochromatic harmony. Great bokeh and very sharp. Technically awesome. Creativity? The bokeh and selection of colors to shoot, the wind affected feathers provide good creativity.
------------------
A lovely shot of this bird, but the bird colours and the background are so similar that the bird doesn't really stand out.
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Fantastic bird portrait. The composition, background, colours, exposure, everything is just great. I see no technical flaws.
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Nice and sharp. Background is brighter then the bird - the subject doesn't really pop out from the background.
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A nice bird! Complex composition with the bird facing the "wrong" way in frame, but with the head turned. Pleasantly surprising. I feel that some of the breast feather detail is battling the background, not enough contrast to isolate the bird from the light shades behind it. Good job.
------------------

This time the comments make more sense and I agree that it shouldn't be accepted in PEG.


ps. the whole serie of the buzzard can be seen here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/post-your-photos/213650-nature-i-hope-he-can-read.html

---

Last edited by Franc; 02-02-2013 at 06:17 AM.

[Ash]

That's the most offered feedback I've seen on a PEG submission to date.

[Franc]

yes, this kind of feedback will help a submitter.
We're getting there

[Jean Poitiers]

yes, this kind of feedback will help a submitter.
We're getting there

I would agree that this is a lot of good feedback ... J

[nanok]

i maintain that submitters should at least have an easy way of "publishing" the pic + comments on the forum, in some critique-focused thread (if we actually have such thing ), so that the effort to explain the decision might help others in improving their photography.

ideally, i would like these to be public by default, and not an option. there are several reasons for that. if you're worried about "reluctance to submit", that is definitely not a problem from what i've seen so far: many people seem to regard this as a sort of lottery "why not submit something". i know i will get my head bitten off for saying this, and i know not everybody is like that (there are some nice pictures submitted too), but this is the trend i see so far, based on my short experience with peg.

/me walks away mumbling "where's nigel atherton?"

[Ash]

I don't see much merit in providing judges' comments in a forum environment. A private email where comments are made to the submitter only is sufficient - the option to share comments should be an easy cut and paste action if desired.

I've seen a significant increase in the number of submissions this year...

[Couscousdelight]

hi,

A K200D can do sport shooting - Pentax User Photo Gallery



I win a DP review challenge with this one ("motorcycle in motion" Motorcycles in Motion: Digital Photography Review , a K200D winning a sport challenge was a big suprise for me ), i was curious to know why it will not be accepted here.

Why a close action shot fur such subject, and why a square format ?
This is the start of the race, when all motorcycles are very, very close for each other and are fignting to get out of the crowd, it's a pretty messy & confusing moment. That's what i've tried to transpose in this image.

The comments :

Nice action, but too zoomed in, a wider shot would have been special.
------------------

Detail in the highlights is lost. White point recovery in SW might improve this.
------------------

I'm sorry but this is just a jumble to me
------------------

Effective use of crop to create energy and urgency in frame.
------------------

The flying mud gives a sense of the action, but a slightly slower shutter speed would have possibly blurred the motion of the spokes on the wheels, leading to more sense of movement.
I'd like to see slightly more of the red bike, some omre of the front wheel and more of the rear, but that may not be possible given all the other bikes and action in the photo.
------------------

I think this captures the feel of Motocross very well.
------------------

Good sense of movement, good colours. Also interesting you've chosen to use the square crop.

Only thing I'd like to perhaps have seen more of is more of the movement towards the bottom of the frame.
------------------

Superb. Love the tight crop - puts the viewer right into the action.
------------------

The shot is a little too close. Should have got more of the closest rider in the frame and more of the dirt flying.
------------------

Interesting, for sure, but do yo have it framed on your wall? That's the first thing I ask with these pictures. If it was mine, would it be hanging on my wall?
------------------

A good action shot. It seems that there is the slightest motion blur around the helmet area. The highlight areas could use a bit of reduction in brightness and CA. While the position of the biker is very good, I do not like the cropping of the top of the head. It's an unfortunate crop.

The colours are nice and bright, and the focus is spot on.
------------------

this is a good effort. i know such events are tough, and i see what you went for here. but imho the crop doesn't work, it's too tight and "unfortunate" all things considered.

otherwise, i like the idea (tried it myself a few years ago, when i was getting bored of the "typical" shots), the result is technically decent, sharp, etc. just need to be worked on more
------------------

Good action shot...like the composition..suggests action...colour very good...Shutter speed good...froze flying mud and speeding motorcycles.
------------------

Nice, crisp, and frozen action. I prefer motorsports shots to have some motion blur however.

But I don't think you are supposed to put your name on the submission.

How can we remain impartial? Where did you see my name on the image ?
------------------Technique Score : 4.01 (Min: 1 Max: 6 Required: 4.65)
Composition Score : 3.63 (Min: 1 Max: 6 Required: 4.65)
Creativity Score : 2.35 (Min: 1 Max: 4 Required: 2.6)


Thank you for the feedback
Regards,
Arno

[Couscousdelight]

Another one, once again of the the judges see my name on the submission, but i still don't know where
the funny fact is that Franc's beautiful bird shot in a previous post have a watermark with his name, and didn't receive any comment for it.




Excellent
------------------

Nice misty feel to this.
------------------

A beautiful composition.
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Dreamy, beautiful image. A technically challenging exposure that is well done.
------------------

technique: under exposed even though it is a dull sky white is to gray.

composition : good , however I think the real, abeit faint, horizon could do with moving, since this image has been cropped square it is hard to tell what latitude there was with the original to achieve this

creative: not sure but it is a good example of a stark single point of interest image
------------------

Nice gradation in the sky.
Maybe just a "little" more contrast in the tree would have helped with definition.
I'd like this on my wall.
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Gorgeous minimalist photograph!
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I really like the look and feel of this photo. I do feel that it could use a bit of PP to clean up some of the black spots in the snow. I also find the focus to be a bit soft.
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Nice capture and conversion...
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wow! Ace lighting on this, and a sensible composition. Also you appear to have made the most of relatively foggy conditions!
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Wonderful tones and composition - perfect for the subject and the mood. -panoguy
------------------

Very nice image. I like the grey tones and how the background is faded.

I think the tree will stand out better if it would be a little sharper and maybe bigger!?
Framing might seem a little bit unbalanced. Usually, for 1:1 format, subjects balance the picture better if they are more centered ... usually, but is not a rule.
A lot of empty space that could be filled in ... or cropped (especially top part).

Overall, very pleasing and a good picture - well done.
------------------

Beautiful comosition. I suggest re-submitting it after removing the dark spots at the bottom of the tree.
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I would like this much better with the tree taking up much more of the frame.
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A nice subtle misty image. I like your composition.

At first I thought the tree was really OOF until I opened it large.

Very very nice photo.
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I think it is not quite there. A little sharper and contrasty around the tree, and perhaps clean up some of the clutter in the foreground and I think this is a great shot
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Very interesting image.... but a lot of dead space in the foreground and background. I'm not sure the huge expanse of sky adds anything to the image. I'd like the tree itself to be a bit sharper. It's a beautiful dreamy image, and has lots going for it.
------------------

A very desolate image. The exposure is good, and the lack of colour works with the snow. The only criticism I have is that the little branch in front of the tree is tremendously distracting. If it was removed from the image - the image would be much better.

The ghostly background is just slightly too ghostly - a bit of contrast increase and lowering the brightness around the horizon would help to bring them more into view.
------------------

hmm, becoming a classic theme already. what i don't like here is that there's not enough washout to really make it "abstract", but not enough detail to help it stand on it's own as a landscape shot (the composition would fail it anyhow i think, even so).

I'm not certain, but possibly different processing might make this a lot better, by pushing it towards what you wanted to get. I'm unsure if it would result in a "gallery grade" shot.

hope this helps
------------------

Good...composition gets the bleakness of winter.
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A nice, foggy mood scene. But is there dust on your sensor, or is that a leaf in the snow?

But I don't think you are supposed to put your name on the submission. ???

How can we remain impartial?
------------------


Technique Score : 3.99 (Min: 1 Max: 6 Required: 4.65)
Composition Score : 4.25 (Min: 1 Max: 6 Required: 4.65)
Creativity Score : 2.44 (Min: 1 Max: 4 Required: 2.6)
*********************


Regards,
Arno

[Ash]

Not all the voters on one image vote on the next image. So you will not get the same sentiments each time. Nevertheless, if you want to ensure impartiality, I'd avoid watermarks. If you want to protect your work as much as possible, you'd put up with the possibility of the judges knowing who you are.

I think the adjudication is essentially on the mark here - your average scores aren't far off from the pass mark, and the shot does look like a fine image with the caveats of composition and slight imperfections noted.