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05-21-2020, 05:19 AM   #1936
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Thanks, Norm! Looks like hubby's got his work cut out (hunting down a ruler and some sort of target).

05-21-2020, 06:54 AM - 2 Likes   #1937
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QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
One last question: would you please have a look at this picture and tell me if you see any signs of front or back focusing? It was also taken with the KP+55-300 PLM with the following settings: 300mm @ f/6.3 Ė 1/160 Ė ISO 800. The bird was about 3-4 meters away from me and what also helps of course is that itís a bit bigger than the tiny sparrows. ��
I'd say the plane of focus is on the foot and breast of the blackbird, rather than the eye and the beak. Assuming you were aiming for the eye, the focus is slightly behind, Again, this doesn't necessarily mean that the lens is off - it might be that the focus point was on the wrong spot at the point of shooting, or the bird moved slightly, or you did. It looks like you used a flash - that often causes a slight delay and there might have been some fractional movement (bird or photographer) in that time.

For a fine calibration of the lens, using the ruler and target as Norm describes, you would really need to put the camera on a tripod, because that is the only way to be sure that the camera has not moved and that the only variable is the focusing of the camera and lens.

Before doing that, as a quick and dirty test, try handheld shooting of a static subject - just anything with enough detail, like Norm's tea packet - in good light and see whether, on a few tries, you and the lens can get it right at the widest aperture. Try zooming the PLM to the point (about 260mm) where the maximum aperture will be f5.6 so the depth of field will be narrower.. Get the subject far enough away to be challenging. Use the centre focus point. Get yourself as steady as possible and see whether you can get the focus spot on.

If it is consistently front or back focusing, then you might need to try the more precise test for calibration. More likely it is neither - you will get some that are off and some that are on the target. Just practise a bit and your success rate will improve.

Shooting technique really matters here - have a look at this article: Making the Most of Long Exposure Handhelds - Introduction - In-Depth Articles The article is about reducing camera movement, but I have found these techniques will also improve the ability to get accurate focus. Even though I have been shooting for a long time, practising these techniques has helped my hit rate a lot in the last few years. There's always room to improve.
QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
Nowadays I mostly use TAv, but looking at the previous 2 pictures I realize I may have set the shutter speed too low for the first one (1/160). The second one was shot at 1/1000 Ė would you say thatís high enough for these little flitting creatures?
I might chime in on this one. I mostly use TAv as well. The point is not which mode you use but what the setting is. Talking about the shots of the sparrow at the feeder, it's all about the success rate. At 1/160th your rate of good shots of a bird at a feeder will be fairly low; at 1/1000th it will be much higher. But you have to trade that off against other variables. At f8 you will have more depth of field to work with (and more margin for focus error), and with most slow-aperture lenses you will have more resolution. As for ISO, the KP gives you plenty of ISO to play with, but it is still worth keeping it as low as possible and only going to 3200 or higher when you need to. I don't know what all the settings were for the two sparrow shots, but if the light was good enough to allow 1/1000th without a very high ISO, great. But often that is not the case, especially with a slow-aperture lens like the PLM.

Bob's warblers are moving around a lot faster, so he needs a higher speed. With a bird at a feeder, by and large I'd say 1/640th or 1/800th should generally be plenty fast enough. In fact I would often go slower than that (because the light wouldn't be enough for a faster speed) and accept that there will be plenty of throwaways. Unless there is really good light (our feeding areas are in shade most of the time), with the PLM at 300mm f6.3 I would typically start at 1/250th - I regard it as a bonus if I can get 1/500th or 1/640th. Sometimes I have to go a lot slower (e.g. 1/60th) but naturally the success rate will then plummet. Sometimes shooting a burst will get you one or two that are good while the rest aren't. But often with our birds, there is a moment when they are perfectly still between sips or bites or movements - that is the moment I try to capture. If I can be confident of holding the camera steady, that moment can be captured with quite a slow speed.

Last edited by Des; 05-21-2020 at 08:59 PM.
05-21-2020, 06:50 PM - 6 Likes   #1938
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Trying to get that itchÖ

Scratch that itch
05-21-2020, 08:17 PM - 2 Likes   #1939
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Terrific series. I'm enjoying all your warbler shots Bob.


Great advice. Birds hopping around are difficult. I see you have gone for 1/1000th in the first and 1/1600th in the other three, Bob, and the results speak for themselves.

The hardest choices come when the light is poor - like when correct exposure means 1/125th and ISO 6400 with the aperture wide open. Can be hard to focus, lots of blurry shots from slow shutter and the high ISO means muddy shots lacking detail. With stationary birds, you can drop the shutter speed fairly low if you have a steady stance - so it can be worth trying 1/60th 3200 and firing a burst to try to get at least one non-blurry shot. But there comes a point where you have to either (a) accept that the shot will be no more than a record or (b) use a flash or (c) give it away.
Thank you very much Des for the kind words, and I certainly appreciate your inspiring advice. For many years I attempted wildlife shots with my old Spotmatic and MX cameras and was never successful. Wildlife tend to stay in shaded areas, and that was my reason to purchase the K-1, though the cost was for sure a challenge for me. I waited much too long to get back into photography but now having some really good results I am thrilled beyond words. You mention poor light, well one day last week we had dark clouds and I told myself I am not going out, it's not worth the effort. Then I saw the tiny birds jumping around on the birch in the front yard. Out the door I went, took about 30 shots in the rain and of course most were not worth the trouble. I'll post some when I finish the warbler series, you can see rain drops on the birds.
Best Regards, Bob

05-21-2020, 08:30 PM - 1 Like   #1940
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QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
Hi Des,

Thank you very much! I so appreciate you taking the time to have a good look at my pictures and giving advice from your wealth of experience!

Arrrghhh Ė the dreaded front and back focus. Iím not technical at all and have no testing equipment., nor am I willing (yet) to shell out serious money to buy any at the moment. I have, however, printed out a test chart. 😉 I can see what you mean by possible front and back focus, especially in the first picture.

As to your remarks:

1. Yes, both pictures are heavily cropped and I was using the viewfinder.
2. Iíll have another/closer look at the pics Iíve taken so far with the 55-300 + KP to see if I can discern any back- or front focusing and any consistency therein
3. My most used settings are spot focus and TAv.
4. And yes, Iíll take some more pictures with the KP-PLM combo and try to be more aware of possible misfocusing, motion blur or movement (e.g. use a tripod every now and then).
5. If the problem persists, Iíll bite the bullet and do the charting. Iím sure my better half (whoís far better at these things), will be willing to help.
6. Regarding the second picture: I agree that this one looks slightly better (Iíve always loved the Sigma for its fast focusing and the sharp pictures it delivered on my previous cameras). Moving the camera closer to the feeder would be a bit tricky for various reasons, and TBH Iím not a fan of using either a tripod or LV, but I realize I may have to a few times to work this out.

One last question: would you please have a look at this picture and tell me if you see any signs of front or back focusing? It was also taken with the KP+55-300 PLM with the following settings: 300mm @ f/6.3 Ė 1/160 Ė ISO 800. The bird was about 3-4 meters away from me and what also helps of course is that itís a bit bigger than the tiny sparrows. 😉

Thanks again, Des, Iíve taken all your suggestions on board and am going to work my way through them. Wish me luck! 😉

---------- Post added 05-21-20 at 13:40 ----------



And thank you very much as well, Bob! I know that the 2 lenses I used here will never outperform that terrific 150-450 of yours, but as Des proves, I must be able to do better with the 55-300. All suggestions help! So, to make sure I understand properly: youíre using the Tv setting? Nowadays I mostly use TAv, but looking at the previous 2 pictures I realize I may have set the shutter speed too low for the first one (1/160). The second one was shot at 1/1000 Ė would you say thatís high enough for these little flitting creatures?

Cheers!
Since day one I have been shooting TAv. Mostly I choose the shutter speed & aperture for the conditions and let the ISO float and check to see that it is not too high. To answer your question, yes 1/1000 should be most appropriate. Des provides excellent advice regarding the choice of shutter speed relative to subject & conditions. Honestly, a big part of my enjoyment with photography these days is continuously learning. It is such an awesome adventure.
One more comment, that 55-300 lens is on my wish list. There are many photos posted on different threads of this forum to show the fantastic quality of that lens.

Best Regards, Bob
05-21-2020, 08:54 PM - 4 Likes   #1941
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more warblers

The last shots were of the black-throated blue warbler, now the black-throated green warbler female and male. Some of these shots are perfect examples of what Des was talking about, not quite nailing the focus where you want. Even though the second shot of the female is not great quality I love the composition...she can't eat lunch without a distracting buzzing thing. I did not see that honey bee until processing and I thought...cool.

Best Regards, Bob
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05-22-2020, 09:32 AM - 3 Likes   #1942
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Lady Cardinal

Lady Cardinal

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05-22-2020, 09:34 AM - 4 Likes   #1943
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Lots of great advice on last couple of pages Thank you Des and Jabobby.

A dove and a warbler. please don't compare to Jabobby's excellent shots







05-22-2020, 11:13 AM - 2 Likes   #1944
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
I'd say the plane of focus is on the foot and breast of the blackbird, rather than the eye and the beak. Assuming you were aiming for the eye, the focus is slightly behind, Again, this doesn't necessarily mean that the lens is off - it might be that the focus point was on the wrong spot at the point of shooting, or the bird moved slightly, or you did. It looks like you used a flash - that often causes a slight delay and there might have been some fractional movement (bird or photographer) in that time.

For a fine calibration of the lens, using the ruler and target as Norm describes, you would really need to put the camera on a tripod, because that is the only way to be sure that the camera has not moved and that the only variable is the focusing of the camera and lens.

Before doing that, as a quick and dirty test, try handheld shooting of a static subject - just anything with enough detail, like Norm's tea packet - in good light and see whether, on a few tries, you and the lens can get it right at the widest aperture. Try zooming the PLM to the point (about 260mm) where the maximum aperture will be f5.6 so the depth of field will be narrower.. Get the subject far enough away to be challenging. Use the centre focus point. Get yourself as steady as possible and see whether you can get the focus spot on.

If it is consistently front or back focusing, then you might need to try the more precise test for calibration. More likely it is neither - you will get some that are off and some that are on the target. Just practise a bit and your success rate will improve.

Shooting technique really matters here - have a look at this article: Making the Most of Long Exposure Handhelds - Introduction - In-Depth Articles The article is about reducing camera movement, but I have found these techniques will also improve the ability to get accurate focus. Even though I have been shooting for a long time, practising these techniques has helped my hit rate a lot in the last few years. There's always room to improve.

I might chime in on this one. I mostly use TAv as well. The point is not which mode you use but what the setting is. Talking about the shots of the sparrow at the feeder, it's all about the success rate. At 1/160th your rate of good shots of a bird at a feeder will be fairly low; at 1/1000th it will be much higher. But you have to trade that off against other variables. At f8 you will have more depth of field to work with (and more margin for focus error), and with most slow-aperture lenses you will have more resolution. As for ISO, the KP gives you plenty of ISO to play with, but it is still worth keeping it as low as possible and only going to 3200 or higher when you need to. I don't know what all the settings were for the two sparrow shots, but if the light was good enough to allow 1/1000th without a very high ISO, great. But often that is not the case, especially with a slow-aperture lens like the PLM.

Bob's warblers are moving around a lot faster, so he needs a higher speed. With a bird at a feeder, by and large I'd say 1/640th or 1/800th should generally be plenty fast enough. In fact I would often go slower than that (because the light wouldn't be enough for a faster speed) and accept that there will be plenty of throwaways. Unless there is really good light (our feeding areas are in shade most of the time), with the PLM at 300mm f6.3 I would typically start at 1/250th - I regard it as a bonus if I can get 1/500th or 1/640th. Sometimes I have to go a lot slower (e.g. 1/60th) but naturally the success rate will then plummet. Sometimes shooting a burst will get you one or two that are good while the rest aren't. But often with our birds, there is a moment when they are perfectly still between sips or bites or movements - that is the moment I try to capture. If I can be confident of holding the camera steady, that moment can be captured with quite a slow speed.
Thanks, Des!

Blackbird shot: No, I didnít use a flash, and youíve confirmed what I thought: that the focus was on the foot/breast rather than on the eye. (Sigma lens).

I tried to figure out how much the PLM was back-focusing, using the test chart I downloaded, a tripod, etc. etc. and followed all the instructions. I tested at the long end of the zoom (260-300mm) and took a couple of photos. I found it tricky to see how much exactly it wanted adjusting, but ended up setting a +2 adjustment and took a picture of another blackbird. I then of course forgot to change some other settings Iíd been playing with, hahaha, but never mind that, Iím after correct focus now. So, this is the one I ended up with.



As to the two sparrow shots: the photos were both taken with the KP,
The 1st one with the PLM at 300mm - f/6,3, 1/160, ISO 1600 at 8 PM
The 2nd one with the Sigma 70-200-f/2.8 at 180mm - f/5,6, 1/1000, ISO 800 at ~4 PM

The light wasnít very good for the first one, but next time Iíll try to up the shutter speed a bit more and just see what the results are. Hopefully the focus adjustment is going to help as well.

Thanks a lot for all your help and insights, Des! Iím sure Iíll look at them time and again!

---------- Post added 05-22-20 at 20:14 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jabobby Quote
Since day one I have been shooting TAv. Mostly I choose the shutter speed & aperture for the conditions and let the ISO float and check to see that it is not too high. To answer your question, yes 1/1000 should be most appropriate. Des provides excellent advice regarding the choice of shutter speed relative to subject & conditions. Honestly, a big part of my enjoyment with photography these days is continuously learning. It is such an awesome adventure.
One more comment, that 55-300 lens is on my wish list. There are many photos posted on different threads of this forum to show the fantastic quality of that lens.

Best Regards, Bob
And thank you again as well, Bob! Yes, I love the continuous learning, too, although all the settings and options are a bit daunting from time to time. But getting better at it is stimulating and makes you want more and even better. 😊 Iím glad youíre enjoying it so much and Iím sure weíll see many more of the lovely pictures you take!

To everybody else: sorry for chatting so much on this picture thread. Iíll stop now and make place for more delightful photos! Thank you for not moaning!

Last edited by lidy; 05-22-2020 at 11:27 AM.
05-22-2020, 03:28 PM - 1 Like   #1945
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QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
Blackbird shot: No, I didn’t use a flash, and you’ve confirmed what I thought: that the focus was on the foot/breast rather than on the eye. (Sigma lens).
We are only talking about a few millimetres here. It's a counsel of perfection - the head is in reasonable focus anyway. Quite a good shot.
QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
I tried to figure out how much the PLM was back-focusing, using the test chart I downloaded, a tripod, etc. etc. and followed all the instructions. I tested at the long end of the zoom (260-300mm) and took a couple of photos. I found it tricky to see how much exactly it wanted adjusting, but ended up setting a +2 adjustment and took a picture of another blackbird.
Well done - excellent result.
QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
As to the two sparrow shots: the photos were both taken with the KP, The 1st one with the PLM at 300mm - f/6,3, 1/160, ISO 1600 at 8 PM The 2nd one with the Sigma 70-200-f/2.8 at 180mm - f/5,6, 1/1000, ISO 800 at ~4 PM The light wasn’t very good for the first one, but next time I’ll try to up the shutter speed a bit more and just see what the results are. Hopefully the focus adjustment is going to help as well.
The conditions for the first one illustrate my point. The light isn't good. It's 8 pm. You are at maximum aperture. So how do you trade off shutter speed and ISO? The choice, for the same exposure at 300mm, is (a) 160th/1600, (b) 1/320th/3200 or (c) 1/640th/6400. (There are fractions of this, but let's keep it simple.) I would have chosen (a) as well, possibly firing a burst of shots. (Or maybe even (aa) use a flash!) But it's worth experimenting with (b) and (c) (or (aa)) so the choice is fully informed.

I wonder what the other yard bird photographers here would have done?

So much easier in the conditions of the other sparrow shot - 4pm, 180mm, f/5,6, 1/1000, ISO 800. Personally, with the luxury of choice, I might have been tempted to go for f6.3 or even f8 in that situation, for more margin for focus error, even if it meant dropping to 1/500th or 1/640th (at 180mm, that should be fast enough).
QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
Thanks a lot for all your help and insights, Des! I’m sure I’ll look at them time and again!
QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
To everybody else: sorry for chatting so much on this picture thread. I’ll stop now and make place for more delightful photos! Thank you for not moaning!
Happy to help. I don't think this is off-topic at all. We are all here to share our yard bird photography experiences and to learn more. Speaking for myself I have learned a lot over the years from hearing the experiences of others.
QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
A dove and a warbler. please don't compare to Jabobby's excellent shots
You are too modest Taks - these are terrific. Great job with exposure against a bright background (whether in the yard or in PP).

Last edited by Des; 05-22-2020 at 03:40 PM.
05-22-2020, 03:40 PM   #1946
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QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
Lots of great advice on last couple of pages Thank you Des and Jabobby.

A dove and a warbler. please don't compare to Jabobby's excellent shots





Taks, comparing to my photos I think all 3 of those shots are really good and the second warbler shot is beautiful, love the composition.
Best Regards, Bob
05-22-2020, 03:50 PM - 2 Likes   #1947
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QuoteOriginally posted by lidy Quote
Thanks, Des!

Blackbird shot: No, I didnít use a flash, and youíve confirmed what I thought: that the focus was on the foot/breast rather than on the eye. (Sigma lens).

I tried to figure out how much the PLM was back-focusing, using the test chart I downloaded, a tripod, etc. etc. and followed all the instructions. I tested at the long end of the zoom (260-300mm) and took a couple of photos. I found it tricky to see how much exactly it wanted adjusting, but ended up setting a +2 adjustment and took a picture of another blackbird. I then of course forgot to change some other settings Iíd been playing with, hahaha, but never mind that, Iím after correct focus now. So, this is the one I ended up with.



As to the two sparrow shots: the photos were both taken with the KP,
The 1st one with the PLM at 300mm - f/6,3, 1/160, ISO 1600 at 8 PM
The 2nd one with the Sigma 70-200-f/2.8 at 180mm - f/5,6, 1/1000, ISO 800 at ~4 PM

The light wasnít very good for the first one, but next time Iíll try to up the shutter speed a bit more and just see what the results are. Hopefully the focus adjustment is going to help as well.

Thanks a lot for all your help and insights, Des! Iím sure Iíll look at them time and again!

---------- Post added 05-22-20 at 20:14 ----------



And thank you again as well, Bob! Yes, I love the continuous learning, too, although all the settings and options are a bit daunting from time to time. But getting better at it is stimulating and makes you want more and even better. 😊 Iím glad youíre enjoying it so much and Iím sure weíll see many more of the lovely pictures you take!

To everybody else: sorry for chatting so much on this picture thread. Iíll stop now and make place for more delightful photos! Thank you for not moaning!
Lidy, you did real good with that fine focus adjustment, excellent results. For me this forum is not just about photos, the chatting is an important people part of it all. There is such a vast amount of knowledge shared on this forum and I can only begin to tell anyone how grateful I am for that. The photos are a great pleasure to view and certainly enjoyable to be able to present & share our shots with others, but the remarks connect & bond us as members and being a part of the wonderful world of photography.
Best Regards, Bob
05-22-2020, 03:57 PM - 2 Likes   #1948
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
We are only talking about a few millimetres here. It's a counsel of perfection - the head is in reasonable focus anyway. Quite a good shot.

Well done - excellent result.

The conditions for the first one illustrate my point. The light isn't good. It's 8 pm. You are at maximum aperture. So how do you trade off shutter speed and ISO? The choice, for the same exposure at 300mm, is (a) 160th/1600, (b) 1/320th/3200 or (c) 1/640th/6400. (There are fractions of this, but let's keep it simple.) I would have chosen (a) as well, possibly firing a burst of shots. (Or maybe even (aa) use a flash!) But it's worth experimenting with (b) and (c) (or (aa)) so the choice is fully informed.

I wonder what the other yard bird photographers here would have done?

So much easier in the conditions of the other sparrow shot - 4pm, 180mm, f/5,6, 1/1000, ISO 800. Personally, with the luxury of choice, I might have been tempted to go for f6.3 or even f8 in that situation, for more margin for focus error, even if it meant dropping to 1/500th or 1/640th (at 180mm, that should be fast enough).


Happy to help. I don't think this is off-topic at all. We are all here to share our yard bird photography experiences and to learn more. Speaking for myself I have learned a lot over the years from hearing the experiences of others.

You are too modest Taks - these are terrific. Great job with exposure against a bright background (whether in the yard or in PP).
Des, this yard bird photographer would do exactly as you stated. I would start with (a) and try other options. That fine warbler shot by Taks is shot @ 1/640, f7.1 with plenty of light obviously as the ISO is low, and produced great results.
Best Regards, Bob
05-22-2020, 04:09 PM - 4 Likes   #1949
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back to warbler photos

Here are a few of the American Redstart male. There were 5 different males jumping around for me to attempt to capture. These are shots of 2 of them and I noticed when watching them that the colors are slightly different, perhaps due to the age of the bird or the angle of the light or the brightness.
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05-23-2020, 12:17 AM - 4 Likes   #1950
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This Crimson Rosella is in the process of morphing from its green/blue juvenile plumage to the adult crimson and blue. K-3 + FA*300 f4.5. Fairly typical settings for mediocre light: f5.6, 1/250th, 1600 ISO.



Last edited by Des; 10-30-2020 at 03:43 PM.
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