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03-11-2016, 01:11 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Excellent, cuts right through the BS, and lists about 20 reasons why you buy a K-3, including almost all physical metrics.
The site lists about 5 reasons, to buy a 5D, the only physical metric worth noting.... .6 stops better low noise high ISO performance, and .6 stops is barely noticeable and lists 20 reasons why to buy a K-3 over a 5 D.

Over all, I'd say the K-3 is a significantly better camera, looking at the numbers.

---------- Post added 03-10-16 at 10:55 AM ----------



There are a number of issues they don't really understand.... like they think the K-3s 13.4 EV dynamic range is only a .7 stop improvement over the 11.9 of the 5D, the actual difference is 1.5 stops, so maybe they don't really understand photography, but as a quick and dirty comparison, I like it.

Now if someone wants to sit down and do a better one, I'll be happy to endorse it, but, right now it's way more informative than comments like the above.

If you want to rip the site , fine, but until you point us at something better, it's the authority.

Compared to Imaging Resources
Canon 5D Mark II vs Pentax K-3 II

I have to say that one is better.

Imaging Resources.


Advantages for the 5D are laughable.
They include such gems of wisdom as


Nice accept in this isn't a general case.



Except in this case the K-3 has better dynamic range.



Ya, many of us have missed a lot of images because the camera took .8 seconds longer than another camera.

At least the above quoted link actually seems to be comparing known specs of the two cameras as opposed to spouting generalities.

However, if you read either site, it's unlikely you'd buy a 5D. Maybe if you do a lot of weddings in doors? That low light performance thin has to be really important to you to look at all those negatives for a .6 stop difference.

Even DxO, that champion of low light performance ranks the K-3 higher, not significantly, but higher.

Normhead, please don't jump to conclusions too quickly. As I said, maybe snapsort it's fun and you like it only because you compared Pentax K-3 II to Canon 5D Mark II. But it's a big joke as a site. Try and compare a few different cameras and you'll see for yourself.
Where are all the K-3 II advantages in the image bellow? They are not listed because they throw in their comparison just some camera specs which most of the time are not written correctly. Anyway, I don't want this topic to become a "fight" between Pentax and whatever other camera. I said my opinion and each and every one can use it or ignore it.

There is no need to transform this topic into a stupid debate.



03-11-2016, 04:23 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Normhead, please don't jump to conclusions too quickly. As I said, maybe snapsort it's fun and you like it only because you compared Pentax K-3 II to Canon 5D Mark II. But it's a big joke as a site. Try and compare a few different cameras and you'll see for yourself.
Where are all the K-3 II advantages in the image bellow? They are not listed because they throw in their comparison just some camera specs which most of the time are not written correctly. Anyway, I don't want this topic to become a "fight" between Pentax and whatever other camera. I said my opinion and each and every one can use it or ignore it.

There is no need to transform this topic into a stupid debate.
I just think, Dan, that the 5D MK II is old enough that its performance is probably not going to compare well with current generation cameras except with regard to high iso performance. It would probably be a different story if the OP was looking at a 6D versus a K3 II or a 5D MK III. I am not that familiar with the durability of the Mk II when it comes to sealing, etc. I do own a bunch of DA * lenses and have used them without problem in all sorts of weather.

You are right on the snap sort thing. It is pretty useless although if the information it has is correct, it can certainly at least throw comparisons for a number of different features out there. The buyer will just have to decide which things he/she values the most.
03-11-2016, 04:39 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think, Dan, that the 5D MK II is old enough that its performance is probably not going to compare well with current generation cameras except with regard to high iso performance. It would probably be a different story if the OP was looking at a 6D versus a K3 II or a 5D MK III. I am not that familiar with the durability of the Mk II when it comes to sealing, etc. I do own a bunch of DA * lenses and have used them without problem in all sorts of weather.

You are right on the snap sort thing. It is pretty useless although if the information it has is correct, it can certainly at least throw comparisons for a number of different features out there. The buyer will just have to decide which things he/she values the most.
Rondec, in my opinion the hard choice it's not between Canon 5D Mark II vs. Pentax K-3 II. It's about what his future plans are. If he wants to go to full frame in the future, then a second hand 5D Mark II can be a good choice for the moment at a very reasonable price. Why? Because of 2 reasons:
1. DA limited lenses are not weather sealed
2. DA limited lenses and DA* lenses are not full frame compatible

If he wants to stay with APS-C then K-3 II is also a very good choice for the type of shooting he said he does. I already said that full frame system will be expensive (no matter if he will choose a K-1 or a 5D Mark II) and I also said that he can't go wrong with either of these 2 cameras. And I also mentioned that K-3 II has better construction than 5D Mark II.
03-11-2016, 04:58 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Rondec, in my opinion the hard choice it's not between Canon 5D Mark II vs. Pentax K-3 II. It's about what his future plans are. If he wants to go to full frame in the future, then a second hand 5D Mark II can be a good choice for the moment at a very reasonable price. Why? Because of 2 reasons:
1. DA limited lenses are not weather sealed
2. DA limited lenses and DA* lenses are not full frame compatible

If he wants to stay with APS-C then K-3 II is also a very good choice for the type of shooting he said he does. I already said that full frame system will be expensive (no matter if he will choose a K-1 or a 5D Mark II) and I also said that he can't go wrong with either of these 2 cameras. And I also mentioned that K-3 II has better construction than 5D Mark II.
I currently own these lenses that are full frame and weather sealed: DFA 24-70, DA *55, DFA 100 macro, and DA *200. Obviously there are more coming out in the future. Most of the DA limited lenses are actually full frame compatible (not weather sealed), with the exception of the DA 15, 21 and 35 macro. I have shot the DA 40 on film and it works fine, just some vignetting wide open.

I did say earlier in the thread that the OP needs to sit down and make a lens map of glass that he would want to buy eventually for whichever system he would go with. That is the bigger decision, as bodies do come and go. A K3 II with a 16-85 would be a start and if full frame is going to be important in the future, other lens purchases after that could be tailored in that direction.

03-11-2016, 05:47 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I did say earlier in the thread that the OP needs to sit down and make a lens map of glass that he would want to buy eventually for whichever system he would go with. That is the bigger decision, as bodies do come and go.
Case in point: although I have 3 superb Pentax crop bodies and ~25 K mount lenses, I've just bought a 5D2 for exactly this reason. The MP-E65/MT-24EX combo is only available on Canon. It's a pretty unique lens & flash combo (1:1 to 5:1 macro); no real way round this other than to buy into Canon.
03-11-2016, 06:04 AM   #36
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QuoteQuote:
If he wants to go to full frame in the future, then a second hand 5D Mark II can be a good choice for the moment at a very reasonable price. Why? Because of 2 reasons:
1. DA limited lenses are not weather sealed
2. DA limited lenses and DA* lenses are not full frame compatible
So you're saying the better lenses for Canon are weather sealed? Because if the Canon's aren't either then it's moot point.
Almost all DA* lenses above 35 mm are FF compatible.
As future choice I would say a 5DmkII is a terrible choice. I researched getting a 5DII a few years ago, and decided I din't like a 5DII as a full frame choice over a K-5. Once the D800 came out. Cameras like the 5D sort of lost their purpose in life. The K-1 is going to posses capabilities the 5D can only dream of.

But the big thing for me is, if you buy a 5DmkII, you're still going to want a K-1 type camera. And I've met several photographers who have put themselves through a whole Canon to Nikon migration, over the issues involved in this decision. And it was not just about MP. For them, colour values and dynamic range were big factors.

Anyway, I did research a 5D once, and that was my final conclusion. Since the K-3 the thought of buying a 5DmkII has not been at least for me a legitimate line of thinking. If I couldn't leave my K-5 for it, I'm definitely not leaving a K-3 for it.

Just my opinion, of course, and the three reasons stated above make almost no sense to me. If you're thinking future FF, a K-1 a year down the line after a price drop will be even more affordable, and a whole two camera generations ahead of a 5D.

SO my question to Dan would be, given the limitations in capability of the camera, what would be a good price to pay for a 5DmkII low enough to make it worth your while changing systems? And what would be the cheapest kit package to be equivalent to a K-3 with an 18-135 with shake reduction?

---------- Post added 03-11-16 at 08:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
Case in point: although I have 3 superb Pentax crop bodies and ~25 K mount lenses, I've just bought a 5D2 for exactly this reason. The MP-E65/MT-24EX combo is only available on Canon. It's a pretty unique lens & flash combo (1:1 to 5:1 macro); no real way round this other than to buy into Canon.
I'm curious, what do you use this combo for? What is it it does that makes it preferable to other equipment?

Last edited by normhead; 03-11-2016 at 06:51 AM.
03-11-2016, 07:03 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm curious, what do you use this combo for? What is it it does that makes it preferable to other equipment?
A single lens, of the highest possible optical quality, that lets you zoom from 1:1 to 5:1, and the twin flash designed specifically for that lens. This lens, with its range and quality, is without peer in the extreme macro world.
03-11-2016, 07:08 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So you're saying the better lenses for Canon are weather sealed? Because if the Canon's aren't either then it's moot point.
Almost all DA* lenses above 35 mm are FF compatible.
As future choice I would say a 5DmkII is a terrible choice. I researched getting a 5DII a few years ago, and decided I din't like a 5DII as a full frame choice over a K-5. Once the D800 came out. Cameras like the 5D sort of lost their purpose in life. The K-1 is going to posses capabilities the 5D can only dream of.

But the big thing for me is, if you buy a 5DmkII, you're still going to want a K-1 type camera. And I've met several photographers who have put themselves through a whole Canon to Nikon migration, over the issues involved in this decision. And it was not just about MP. For them, colour values and dynamic range were big factors.

Anyway, I did research a 5D once, and that was my final conclusion. Since the K-3 the thought of buying a 5DmkII has not been at least for me a legitimate line of thinking. If I couldn't leave my K-5 for it, I'm definitely not leaving a K-3 for it.

Just my opinion, of course, and the three reasons stated above make almost no sense to me. If you're thinking future FF, a K-1 a year down the line after a price drop will be even more affordable, and a whole two camera generations ahead of a 5D.

SO my question to Dan would be, given the limitations in capability of the camera, what would be a good price to pay for a 5DmkII low enough to make it worth your while changing systems? And what would be the cheapest kit package to be equivalent to a K-3 with an 18-135 with shake reduction?

We are not talking about changing systems. Please read all the OP's post. As for which system is better... it all comes down to personal preferences. On Nikon forum people cry about the oil problem on the sensors and about the ugly skin tones from their cameras compared to Canon, on Canon forum people cry about the lack of dynamic range compare to Nikon, on Pentax forum people cry about Af capabilities and the lack of third party lenses, etc. It's just a waste of time to find the perfect system.

Back on topic: I'm not sure how the prices for second hand cameras are in SUA, but I can get a 5D Mark II in Romania for about 620-670$ and a second hand 16-35mm f2.8L lens for about 1.000-1.100$ (even with warranty with a bit of luck). Or I can buy a new 15-30mm Tamron lens for 1.200$.

But again, that is not important, at least not for me. Why I said it's a tough decision? Let's say I have a 1.700$ budget and:
1. I want to take pictures with wide angle lenses
2. I want to be able to take pictures in tough weather conditions
3. I do like to take photos in natural light with no flashes.

Bare in mind that these 3 points are OP wishes, ok?

A 5D Mark II it's not as tough as K-3 II and it doesn't have the same dynamic range as K-3 II but it covers all three point from above. And it does them now, without the wait for a K-1 to drop in price. And after a few years he'll still have a superb lens to mount on the next body.

On the other hand, if he is interested in going full frame and he wants to stay with Pentax, he can buy a 15-30mm for K-3 II which is a full frame lens, but it costs 1.445$ at B&H (unfortunatly it's not avaible second hand) and once put it on K-3 II he will have a 22,5-45mm equivalent focal length.

So yes, it's a tough choice. Both are good cameras, but one is APS-C (and either he goes with APS-C lenses or go with full frame lenses) and with the other one he can already experience the wide angle shots and full frame low light capabilities without the wait. If he's not interested in going full frame then Pentax K-3 II with DA Limited or DA* lenses it's a very good option.

And let's be fair, how much difference do you think will be at low ISO when comes to the image quality between files from these to camera? Maybe Stevebrot can help us with some real examples (not lab tests) in which he put side by side his photos with the one from his friend who uses a 5D Mark II?


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 03-11-2016 at 07:59 AM.
03-11-2016, 08:13 AM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
A single lens, of the highest possible optical quality, that lets you zoom from 1:1 to 5:1, and the twin flash designed specifically for that lens. This lens, with its range and quality, is without peer in the extreme macro world.
Ah, thanks for the explanation. There are many areas of specialty applications where Pentax will never be a presence.

QuoteQuote:
As for which system is better... it all comes down to personal preferences.
I dealt with that when I noted that if the .6 stop advantage to the 5d is the most important thing, then the 5DmkII is a better choice. I think that accounts for personal preferences. No?

To just claim "personal preference" cancels everything.. well yes and no. The goal is to make an informed decision. But ya, if you prefer 5 year old FF technology that doesn't even stack up against modern APS-c technology, except in one area, then go for it. No sweat off my back. But to make a real "personal preferences type choice, you'd have to be using both cameras, so you understood the whole "what are my personal preference with regards to these cameras." Others regurgitating their personal preferences doesn't help at all.

Last edited by normhead; 03-11-2016 at 08:24 AM.
03-11-2016, 08:35 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
A single lens, of the highest possible optical quality, that lets you zoom from 1:1 to 5:1, and the twin flash designed specifically for that lens. This lens, with its range and quality, is without peer in the extreme macro world.
I wanted that lens badly, but figured out that it will require serious setup to shoot 5:1. How did you find that lens performance on 5:1?
03-11-2016, 08:38 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by micromacro Quote
I wanted that lens badly, but figured out that it will require serious setup to shoot 5:1. How did you find that lens performance on 5:1?
I'll let you know when it has finally arrived, fingers crossed next w/e!
03-11-2016, 09:00 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I dealt with that when I noted that if the .6 stop advantage to the 5d is the most important thing, then the 5DmkII is a better choice. I think that accounts for personal preferences. No?

To just claim "personal preference" cancels everything.. well yes and no. The goal is to make an informed decision. But ya, if you prefer 5 year old FF technology that doesn't even stack up against modern APS-c technology, except in one area, then go for it. No sweat off my back. But to make a real "personal preferences type choice, you'd have to be using both cameras, so you understood the whole "what are my personal preference with regards to these cameras." Others regurgitating their personal preferences doesn't help at all.
Here we go again...
You know what? Stevebot said he's friend take superb photos with his 5D Mark II (I'm confident he's telling the truth), I said it's a tough choice because both cameras are good (despite the fact that one is APS-C and one is just one generation old full frame), you say there is a 6 stop difference in dynamic range so K-3 II is better...let's leave it like that.

Why?Maybe because for you the dynamic range is more important, but maybe for me a 8mm fisheye or a 11-24 mm lens mounted on a full frame will get me the shot which your camera with all the dynamic range in the world will not be able to get me. I will still have a chance to take a shot like yours if I put a good filter in front of my lens (at least this this I was told by landscape photographers which are not leaving their homes without filters).

But as I said, let's leave it like that. Your preferences in specs differ than mine, so getting into this debate with you will be neither constructive, neither short.
To make myself clear about that, I can tell you one thing. If we have to choose between a K-3 II and a K-3 II in a 7D Mark II body we will still have a debate on which one is more ergonomically (I have large hands so for me the larger body will be the first choice, you would like a compact body, another one will cry that he wants his K-3 II in a mirrorless body, etc.).
03-11-2016, 11:40 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Here we go again...
You know what? Stevebot said he's friend take superb photos with his 5D Mark II (I'm confident he's telling the truth), I said it's a tough choice because both cameras are good (despite the fact that one is APS-C and one is just one generation old full frame), you say there is a 6 stop difference in dynamic range so K-3 II is better...let's leave it like that.

Why?Maybe because for you the dynamic range is more important, but maybe for me a 8mm fisheye or a 11-24 mm lens mounted on a full frame will get me the shot which your camera with all the dynamic range in the world will not be able to get me. I will still have a chance to take a shot like yours if I put a good filter in front of my lens (at least this this I was told by landscape photographers which are not leaving their homes without filters).

But as I said, let's leave it like that. Your preferences in specs differ than mine, so getting into this debate with you will be neither constructive, neither short.
To make myself clear about that, I can tell you one thing. If we have to choose between a K-3 II and a K-3 II in a 7D Mark II body we will still have a debate on which one is more ergonomically (I have large hands so for me the larger body will be the first choice, you would like a compact body, another one will cry that he wants his K-3 II in a mirrorless body, etc.).
That's as good a last word as any I might have thought of.
03-14-2016, 01:37 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kerrowdown Quote
I see you've already had loads of good replies, so I'll just say welcome.
Thanks kerrowdown, amazing how much interest it is in this question. I really like the support and insights in this subject.
Cheers!

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2016 at 21:51 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by TER-OR Quote
There are some wide angle options even on a crop body. The low end of expense includes the fisheye 10-17, a nice little zoom. At 17mm it's pretty much an ultrawide and it's very fishy at 10mm. Sigma's 8-16 is a totally different lens. Of course you have the 21mm ltd and the 15mm ltd plus 10-20mm zooms of various flavors.

The options are there, and probably more options than will work on a full-frame right now. We're likely to see a few more in the coming years now that a FF K-mount is in the wild.

Beyond that, comparing these two cameras will factor down to the user. How do you use the camera, do you really get the best out of the settings or rely on post-processing to fix under or overexposure etc.
Regarding settings and so i developed my skills in prehistoric era (before digital cameras was born :-)) so i tend to stick to a work-flow where i want to make the picture right at first shot. ( composition, camera settings etc)
03-25-2016, 04:31 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by mogge Quote
Hi again,
thanks to all good advices on the road to a choice of new SLR. As many of you highlighted good Canon lenses are not cheap and very often they still don't have image stabilizer! that was one thing I learnt from the time when i used a Pentax K10 with stabilizer that worked with all lenses, even my old M and K lenses. That was great experience I like to be mobile and take photos with slow shutter speeds in low light conditions. So at the moment i think i will go back to Pentax...but one disadvantage is of course the crop factor. I do like shooting wide angle and it is hard to find good lenses in the range 15-20 mm (fullframe 35 mm).

cheers!
I take it you want to buy the 5D mark ii off your lady friend.

I've looked at similar cameras before, and what it comes down to is your lenses. There are some cheap lenses in Canon, then anything thats good is hugely expensive.. For a $2000 Canon lens, I can get a DA fisheye, a wide angle, and a 16-50 or 17-50, and also a cheap prime .........done !

Value for money is there with a crop camera. I think I could think of three other brands where you can get a lot more for your money before copping a pounding from canon pricing.

Its up to you, if you've got the money, then go for the 5Dmarkii. If you're on a budget, then get a K-3ii, and you'll get more for your money.

But if you do go for the 5Dmarkii, there are some disturbing videos from Ed at photouniverse on youtube who bought into Canon again with a 6D, and L series lenses, and compared that to the K-3, and he sold the Canon gear on.


Just bear with this video in the beginning, eds dumping his Canon gear:

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