Yes, it is, with a few exceptions. In most, if not all, states it is illegal to charge more than the advertised/posted/sticker price for an item or service if a credit card is used. The convenience fee is allowed in some cases such as cash, (i.e. someone asks you do give them $50.00 cash charged on their card) or if you are reselling postage,etc. Basically, you can only charge a fee if you would be loosing money (as opposed to making less).
If I have an item on the floor with a $300.00 priced tag on it and the customer says "I'll take it" I can not charge more than $300.00 because he uses a credit card. It is illegal. I can charge less than that if I choose, for any reason I choose, including as a discount for paying by cash or check.

Same here in Florida. I can discount for cash or check but I can't add a surcharge for credit card. Not even for the rapist Amex. Shipping and handling is always an extra charge and is not taxed. I love it when someone tells me it's only $14.95 from the post office. That's what I want to pay. Then come over here and take it to the post office yourself. That's time I need to be paid for also.

[SteveM]

I don't mind which way something is posted, so what I am hearing is that everyone will be happy if;

The item is listed at a price where paypal is presumed, then a discount of $xx is offered for Cash / electronic bank transfer / bank money order??

[Adam]

It's not our policy to police this. Whether you call it a handling charge or a paypal fee is the seller's business and responsibility.

Can someone please move this to the site suggestions forum?

[alohadave]

There are no Terms of Service for shipping, if you use UPS, or USPS or FedEx then they have their own TOS and I have no idea what they are cause I dont care to look It's a given that it's cheaper to ship then travel in most cases. It has nothing to do with morality in the end, you can make it a morality issue, but if you don't like the Terms of Service for PayPal, then dont offer the service to your buyers. It's pretty simple. If you think its bullshit, then dont participate, or do something to change it. But you can't have both.

Do you work for PayPal?

If you don't like people that add in the service charge to the price, don't deal with them. Vote with your dollars. PayPal can take care of themselves, they don't need you to be their knight in shiny armor.

[TriCon]

Really has nothing to do with PayPal, just wondering why everyone does it? If I worked for PayPal I would just start suspending accounts

I think maybe I came across too hostile, I wasnt actually getting worked up in any of this, just trying to understand if everyone does this here out of blatant disregard for terms and customer service, or just ignorance (in the simplest form of the word, not derogatory).

Besides that, your post doesnt really make sense, I'm advocating for the buyers on this site, not PayPal. They dont gain or lose anything from this. Only the buyers do.

Do you work for PayPal?

If you don't like people that add in the service charge to the price, don't deal with them. Vote with your dollars. PayPal can take care of themselves, they don't need you to be their knight in shiny armor.

[SteveM]

I'm guessing the intention for most was to offer their item to other forum members at the best possible cost, not to "ding" someone with an extra fee. I doubt there were any deceitful intentions involved.

[Jasvox]

You're missing the point, the problem is when you ask for $375 plus shipping for cash/etc. and $400 plus shipping for PayPal. That's not permissible according to PayPal's terms of service. if you want to use PayPal, then you abide by their rules, if you don't like it then don't use PayPal.

I'm not missing the point and I do know what point you are trying to make, I am simply stating that if I ask a price for something and that price is my choice, why should I care what paypal's philosophy is? If you choose to buy what I am selling, then you are paying what I want to sell it for, hidden charges or disclosed.

...or you could choose not to buy what I am listing.

Jason

[DogLover]

You'd better be one hell of a successful businessman to come into an internet community where you are only a new member and insult the majority of that community's business sense.

I have never seen someone be so anal about an issue if they truly are a disinterested party. I am officially questioning either your; 1) motives, 2) integrity, 3) amount of free time.

Nobody has ever held a gun to your head and forced you to pay ANY fees. If you don't like it, don't buy from them.

Perhaps you should find some other obscure issue to obsess over. Here, I'll get you started. Restaurants should be forced to pay their people a decent wage and not rely on tips to make up the difference. Now there's something where you can make a real difference in this old world. Okay. Ready......set.....GO!

Seriously...go....as in away.

[Peter Zack]

I've edited the previous post. Let's keep this civil.

Now Adam, the site owner has spoken and members can handle this as they please. We provide the marketplace forum for people to advertise. If we began policing the payment issue, then we become open to issue. As it is members can do as they want with their ads.

[subeeds]

I sell handmade stuff online. Any fees (except shipping) I may encounter with a processing company are figured into the final cost of the item. I would guess that a lot of people do it that way. It's business.

[Steve Beswick]

Back when I first took over my art framing shop I thought that taking credit cards was just one of those things I had to do no matter what. I ended up raising my prices a couple of percent just to cover the difference, and convinced myself that would be just fine. My price was my price, and if someone paid with cash or check I just considered it a little bonus.

One day a nice older woman came in and bought A package of wall hooks. She was such a nice lady I even ate the tax, $5 out the door. She paid with her Amex. I thought of it as a goodwill sale and then proceeded to forget about it.

Roughly two weeks later my Amex statement came. I was charged 4% for the 1 $5 transaction, and $20 for having had any Amex transactions in the last month. This caused me to go back through my previous statements. My average month with them was right around $100, which meant I was giving them 24%!

After that I started two policies:
1. No Amex under $500. I only had one guy ever complain, and I still had his repeat business after that.
2. An automatic 5% discount for cash and check sales. This was one of the best moves I ever made. First, it made me a lot more "liquid" when times were lean, which made it possible to keep things going smoothly. Second, it made people very happy when they made large purchases. It even opened the door to a couple of other unexpected things - I had one customer who, realizing I was somewhat willing to negotiate, brought me all of his business framing on the basis that I would credit him 20% of the deal for personal framing. We called it a "finders fee". My first year with him was $12,000.

To me, PayPal is really no different than the credit card companies. They charge a small but appreciable fee and provide very little real benefit in return. I do use PayPal, and I regularly accept PayPal for payment. But on larger sales I am more than willing to take a money order or a personal check, and I will provide an appropriate discount. This is not illegal or unethical. I would argue that it is in fact unethical to pass the costs of those who pay with PayPal or CC on to those that pay with check.

The reason that PayPal has the "No Fee" rule is because they don't want buyers to realize how much PayPal charges the seller. They also don't want the seller to think about it too much.

The worst example of the fee bombing is when you sell something on eBay. I have an item on eBay right now that I have listed for $270. If it sells, eBay will charge me ~$20, and then PayPal, which is owned by eBay, charges me again when I receive payment.

Anyone on here who thinks that there is a difference between...

Item $80
PayPal $5
S&H $15

...and...

Item, with all fees included $100

...is delusional. Just because the cost is hidden doesn't mean it isn't there. I for one applaud those on here who take the time to break it all down for us, especially on higher priced items.

Of course, I'm an odd duck in this day and age. I refuse to be an "average" American - I'm not going to have the majority of my paycheck disappear to fees and interest before I see a dime.

[TriCon]

Haha, way to fail at the internet and get worked up on a forum! Seriously though, I have to know: What exactly does being a successful business man have absolutely anything to do with posting text in a forum?

The great thing about forums is there is no barrier to entry. Just hop on and start discussing. This was a pretty civil discussion about PayPal terms of service, it never got out of hand till you arrived slinging poo!

Take it easy, this interwebz thing is going to give you a heart attack one day

You'd better be one hell of a successful businessman to come into an internet community where you are only a new member and insult the majority of that community's business sense.

I have never seen someone be so anal about an issue if they truly are a disinterested party. I am officially questioning either your; 1) motives, 2) integrity, 3) amount of free time.

Nobody has ever held a gun to your head and forced you to pay ANY fees. If you don't like it, don't buy from them.

Perhaps you should find some other obscure issue to obsess over. Here, I'll get you started. Restaurants should be forced to pay their people a decent wage and not rely on tips to make up the difference. Now there's something where you can make a real difference in this old world. Okay. Ready......set.....GO!

Seriously...go....as in away.

[RawheaD]

I repeat, this whole debate is idiotic. So what has it boiled down to?

In terms of strict legality and/or TOS of Paypal, it's OK if a seller makes a listing as "all inclusive" but offer cash discounts to those who won't use Paypal, but it's not OK to offer all forms of payment, including Paypal with the caveat that the seller asks the buyer to foot the Paypal fee. That about it?


So, it's all semantics, and nothing substantive.


Again, idiotic.


We're not selling anything for retail here, we're selling used items. The market (=other forum members) ultimately decide the final price based on the sum total of what s/he is willing to pay (including shipping costs and perhaps import tax and Paypal fees) to receive the item. It doesn't matter how it's worded. Like some people have said, I just like to clearly lay out what the buyer is paying for (or, rather, clearly lay out what my *actual* asking price is––"net to me"––and what all the other money will be going towards).

Whether or not that will have a negative, positive, or neutral effect on how well I'll do as a seller is nobody's business.

Personally, I'd view an "all inclusive" listing as possibly inflated. E.g., if you were to sell an item for $1150, the Paypal fee is going to be $44.85. So, are you going to list the item for $1194.85 all inclusive? I doubt it. You'll probably list it for $1200 all inclusive (and perhaps offer a $50 discount for non-Paypal payments). In fact the buyer will be paying more, and the seller would be getting more (even after the slightly higher Paypal fee associated with the higher price).

Now, I wouldn't really base my purchasing decisions on exactly how it's listed. Again, I'd make that choice based on the amount I'm willing to spend total to receive the item. However, I personally *prefer* when everything is clearly laid out, because I'd then know what the seller is really looking to get for *himself/herself* without any hidden costs and fees. Such sellers appear more honest. Perhaps this is just a matter of taste. But that's why I list my listings the way I do.

[Aristophanes]

It's not our policy to police this. Whether you call it a handling charge or a paypal fee is the sellers business and responsibility.

Can someone please move this to the site suggestions forum?

But Pentax Forums requires a posting of a price. There is a set list of required criteria for a listing, so you've already set up a template sales contract of sorts.

The Pentax Forums TOS are designed to deflect vicarious liability for sales contract away from Pentax Forums. Without that, you'd be a middleman to every transaction. We don't want that impeding commerce. Same for PayPal and its TOS, except by using PayPal each member here who sidebars it as a term of sale is explicitly entering into a PayPal contract, and that is substantive and it is definitely PayPal's biz because they have a dispute resolution system as part of that contract.

However as an advertising forum, there may be truth in advertising or "bid bait" or other applicable laws that Pentax Forums is subject to in various jurisdictions.

I do know from my background that shipping fees are always a separate transaction under most carriage laws, which have a Uniform Code and/or international precedent to them. But the costs for cash or credit handling as applied to an advertised price, that's the tricky issue here.

Might be something to investigate a bit further if only to differentiate a PayPal or related fee system as a separate line item alongside all the other criteria Pentax Forums has set up. You'd hate to get a cease and desist from PayPal (which is, itself under regulatory scrutiny as no one knows if it is a deposit holding "bank", escrow company, or credit company). I use but do not entirely trust PayPal, so understanding their service is necessary. I am of the camp that PayPal doesn't want its transaction fees separate from the final sales price as it would then be forced into a regulatory regime akin to a credit issuers, complete with solvency regulations. To preserve their ambiguity as a financial service, PayPal may be more stringent about its TOS than some blithely assume, and we'd hate for Adam to get embroiled in some mess related to this topic.

Bringing this up may seem a bit over the top, but I have to admit, that someone reading the PayPal TOS is something to respect. Given certain housing market implosions recently, reading contracts is a good thing. Discussion and disclosure is what this Forum is all about.

[RawheaD]

Also, comparing the "Paypal fee burden on the seller" to how retailers deal with credit cards is flawed. And it's not just because almost all of those retailers build in those costs into the list prices. It's also because the buyer also shares the burden.

Cuz, you know, you're using a credit card. That doesn't come free (if it did, credit card companies won't have an incentive to offer you credit). You *are* paying for the convenience of being able to purchase items without cash-in-hand, and you *are* paying for the protection you get through your CC company because you pay the high interest rates and in some cases yearly membership fees.

With Paypal, it's completely skewed. The buyer doesn't share any part of the burden. You don't pay a single dime to use the service. And yet, the buyer receives all the "protection" while the seller is essentially protected from nothing. And guess how Paypal can afford to offer that protection to the buyers? Yup, from the Paypal fees that they collect solely from the sellers. It is an entirely flawed system.

I understand that the root of the issue raised by the OP hasn't got so much to do with morality or ethics (ethics + Paypal mix about as well as water and oil anyway) but rather the TOS, but I just wanted to say this, as I will not accept the notion that the seller benefits from using Paypal as much as the buyer––even then, the fair thing would be to split the Paypal fee between the two parties.