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05-31-2011, 04:09 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
The fact that the original poster felt he had to reopen the discussion in a closed thread via a new thread, rather than just quietly asking the mod "Why?" maybe tells me all I need to know about the intent of the closed thread.
We don't know whether Wheatfield tried to quietly ask the moderators "Why". Also, not that Wheatfield may not have had an issue with the moderators at all. Probably he simply wanted to alert forum users to a potential problem for foreign buyers and hence thought he should post that somewhere more prominently.

I don't know the real motivation for sure either, but I surely know that the information available to us is certainly "not all we need to know".

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
If they feel a discussion has gotten out of hand, or a poster has, they have a perfect right to close said thread as they please, and they don't need to even explain why.
They don't have to explain their actions. But a forum where moderators explain their actions is
  1. a friendlier forum, and
  2. helps users to avoid violating policies in the future.
None of the policies quoted to me (e.g., regarding disrespecting B&H representatives) applied in my case. So I'm left guessing what the moderator didn't like.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
I've seen several posts and threads here in the past that have been absolutely aimed at causing a disturbance.
That may be the case, but that's not really relevant to this thread here. None of the respective threads/posts were aimed at "causing disturbance".

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Yes, posts like these get closed and with good reason.
Again, the posts you mentioned have nothing to do with the posts discussed here.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
These stores contribute a large chunk of change that enables this forum to operate.
Is that so? How do you know?

Another user told me that user donations recently covered 3x the amount to run the forum. Assuming that is true, in principle, the forum would not need to rely on further income?

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Probably because the mods realize that it's likely to be more of the same, ...
And based on the assumption that is going to be likely to be more of the same, some useful content gets deleted / closed as well? Is that just collateral damage?

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
If there is one thing I've learned about being on forums like this it's that there is ALWAYS someone there ready to second guess the moderators, to challenge their authority in every which way to do their job, to needle them, the people who run the place over them, and whatever sponsors the board might have if any.
Sure, but again not relevant to this thread.

Just because such people exist, not everyone who raises a concern regarding a moderator action fits your description above.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Think about the fact that they do have a large bill to pay every month just so they can keep this place going, and DON'T okay?
Please see my comment above about the user donations. They seem to be coming in plenty at the moment.

If I put myself into the shoes of someone running a forum, I realise that the reason why this forum gets a lot of hits is because users create useful content and are available for other users to help them out.

Without the user-created content, there would be not nearly as much as traffic and hence very little chance that any store would be interested in becoming an affiliated store.

Hence, if I put myself into the shoes of someone running a forum, I would always put the interest of the users first. Of course, aggression or any form of disrespect towards affiliated stores should not be tolerated, but we are not talking about such things in this thread. (I would not have been surprised if some of the less subtle messages against B&H would have been removed/edited, but I was surprised that posts/threads that had a different intention were deleted/closed).

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Even when I owned the board and had the perfect right to say "Enough please!" it was never "okay" with a certain contingent of people who were determined to cause trouble amongst us.
That's deplorable, but again, not relevant to this thread.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Judging by the bulging folder of saved threads that I've printed in the time I've been here I cannot help but realize how valuable an asset this board is to Pentax people.
How many threads you have saved are from the "Ask B&H" section and how many are from user-created content?

05-31-2011, 06:59 PM - 3 Likes   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
Especially when the last post in that thread is the site OWNER asking a question, that can never be answered!
The site owner reopened a closed thread long enough to post that, and then he closed the thread to ensure there could be no rebuttal.
The moderator in question also issued a fairly thinly veiled threat in his message to me.
My protesting the thread closure to the mod in question and to the site owner netted me 6 demerit points as well.
06-01-2011, 03:39 AM - 1 Like   #33
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Without addressing any specific thread, topic or person posting I think it would be good for all to keep in mind that we are invited guests here at the forum. As such it behooves all of us to behave in a manner that our host appreciates.

If you want free speech and unlimited ability to rant start your own forum.


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06-01-2011, 05:18 AM   #34
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Actually, a lot of people pay to be on this forum, and it might behoove our host to to remember exactly who feeds him.

06-01-2011, 05:52 AM - 1 Like   #35
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I was interested in this closed thread because, living outside of the US, it had relevance to me. I've bought from overseas before (not the US) but had checked beforehand just what the warranty situation was. With one Hong Kong firm I know the warranty is not accepted by the local Australian distributor but they have their own agent in place that deals with warranty claims. Personally, I thought both "sides" had missed some points but it seemed a defense mode was adopted where each side was trying to show the other the point they had missed - I think both missed some critical points.
I don't think the thread really reached any solid conclusion and was possibly heading down the wrong path but I also think the issue has not really been clarified and I think it is an issue that needs a conclusion for those of us outside the US. I wanted to contribute but would now be cautious of opening a new thread because of this closure. Personally, I think the issue itself can't be totally clarified because it *is* open to interpretation due to the way the quoted US Pentax Imaging International Warranty is worded and based on policies of distributors in other countries.
I really think we need constructive discussion on this without defense modes taking over.
06-01-2011, 08:33 AM   #36
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So someone donating a few $ every so often is supposed to give said donator the right to be as rude as they want?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Actually, a lot of people pay to be on this forum, and it might behoove our host to to remember exactly who feeds him.
06-01-2011, 08:49 AM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
So someone donating a few $ every so often is supposed to give said donator the right to be as rude as they want?
Of course not. I didn't see anything rude in the thread in question, though (but maybe I'm dense.)

06-01-2011, 09:55 AM   #38
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I am reminded by this thread of an old sketch from the Monty Python TV series about the nature of "discussion" or "argument.

I gained the impression because you appeared to be taking my post apart sentence by sentence and "disproving" it rather than advancing new thoughts.

The post was entitled "grey imports". Had it been about buying from the US, then I would agree with what you say.

HOWEVER, the OP did not talk about buying from the US. It appears to me from all the threads that if there is a problem, it is caused by the policy of Pentax USA and not one particular seller. Despite this the OP, did not mention any other shop. The other threads seemed to have gone the same way and so I approve of the actions taken. The same observation has been made by a couple of other members as well.

I came to this forum to gain some more knowlege of this fantastic pastime of taking photos and maybe perhaps to help some others who share the passion. I did not join to read what seems to me to be some people having a go at particular vendor(s).

Regards,
Kim
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Of course you are.
I'm sorry if I somehow created the impression that I thought otherwise.


I respect your opinion. My reply to your post was intended to give you more facts so that you may form another opinion.

All good, AFAIC.

P.S.: Thanks heaps for your Pentax Manuals site. Some gems made available through it. Much appreciated!
06-01-2011, 10:02 AM   #39
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I wasn't talking about that specific thread actually. I was rather addressing the idea expressed in the response above that donating money apparently in that person's mind equals the freedom to say whatever they'd like?
06-01-2011, 01:41 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kim C Quote
]I am reminded by this thread of an old sketch from the Monty Python TV series about the nature of "discussion" or "argument.
No you're not !.... (yeah, it's a fave of mine too.)

QuoteQuote:
I came to this forum to gain some more knowlege of this fantastic pastime of taking photos and maybe perhaps to help some others who share the passion. I did not join to read what seems to me to be some people having a go at particular vendor(s).

Regards,
Kim
You have some simple options then, the easiest being..don't read those threads/posts.
There is no rule saying you have to, read the ones about the things you say you are interested in instead.
Life's too short for secondhand misery, be happy..

Cheers Bob.
06-01-2011, 03:21 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Actually, a lot of people pay to be on this forum, and it might behoove our host to to remember exactly who feeds him.
With all due respect,

Considering the perks that come with a paid membership, I personally would consider your donations to be for services rendered in disk space and bandwidth. I suspect there is a good bit more money earned with less overhead from sales commissions made on the site.

Whether it is or isn't, being rude or argumentative to the owner or staff is still wrong. Most mods work for free or maybe a few perks. These people are human and might make a bad call here and there. The Admin must support the staff in public. How he chooses to discuss the matter in private is not for you or me to know.
06-01-2011, 06:21 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kim C Quote
I am reminded by this thread of an old sketch from the Monty Python TV series about the nature of "discussion" or "argument.

I gained the impression because you appeared to be taking my post apart sentence by sentence and "disproving" it rather than advancing new thoughts.

The post was entitled "grey imports". Had it been about buying from the US, then I would agree with what you say.

HOWEVER, the OP did not talk about buying from the US. It appears to me from all the threads that if there is a problem, it is caused by the policy of Pentax USA and not one particular seller. Despite this the OP, did not mention any other shop. The other threads seemed to have gone the same way and so I approve of the actions taken. The same observation has been made by a couple of other members as well.

I came to this forum to gain some more knowlege of this fantastic pastime of taking photos and maybe perhaps to help some others who share the passion. I did not join to read what seems to me to be some people having a go at particular vendor(s).

Regards,
Kim
Did you actually read my original post? I talked specifically about buying from the US, and I mentioned both B&H and Adorama, plus " any of the other American mail order companies".
Do I need to list them all by name to satisfy you?
Perhaps you should go back and read it again. I can guarantee you I haven't changed a thing.
Certainly one of the points of the thread was that the B&H representatives who post here seem a little less than knowledgeable about what grey market products are, but that was only because they were the ones that stood up and expressed ignorance.
I felt it important for non USA buyers from USA suppliers to know that they were buying grey market products because (and only because) they are end running their home turf suppliers, which is exactly the opposite of that one of the B&H reps stated publicly.
06-01-2011, 07:06 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I felt it important for non USA buyers from USA suppliers to know that they were buying grey market products because (and only because) they are end running their home turf suppliers, which is exactly the opposite of that one of the B&H reps stated publicly.
To me it seemed offense was taken that B&H might have been a "Grey Importer" and that it might have been implied that they were therefore dodgy or something and went on the defense.
I didn't see it that way at all. I saw it from the perspective that the *product* might be considered "grey" by a local distributor if purchased by someone residing outside of the US and imported by them into the country. It applies equally to any country. The International Warranty card referred to and available from Pentax Imaging US specifically states when "travelling" overseas and even if issued the decision on whether to accept it rests solely with the distributor in the country where it is presented. If they decide to say "you imported this. You're a local resident, It's considered a grey import. We don't accept warranties for grey imports" then they are well within their rights to deny warranty service which means the option is to ship it back to where you bought it from.
Using Australia as an example, the local authorised distributor explicitly does not warrant Pentax items from a few well known online Australian registered companies with offices in Australia because the stock is obtained from an authorised *overseas* distributor and not through themselves and is therefore considered by them to be "grey".
The relevance to B&H is that they are a site sponsor and I'm sure many of us from outside the US would therefore like to deal with them - especially with recent currency rate changes. Maybe, considering that B&H seem to be overly criticised, the thread sparked some sensitivities outside of the context of the thread. I haven't seen the previous threads that have lead to the changes with the way B&H questions are being asked so I could only read the thread in its own context which is sometimes a good approach.
From the time I've been in these forums I seriously doubt there was any insult intended towards B&H or implication that they might be a "Grey Importer". There might be a few that act that way but I'm yet to come across them.
06-01-2011, 08:29 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kim C Quote
The post was entitled "grey imports". Had it been about buying from the US, then I would agree with what you say.
I think you are getting a bit hung up with wording. To me (and apparently others) the thread was about the warranty situation for foreign buyers. The US is one example for the location of a store. B&H is one example for a store. The principles under discussion, however, apply to all stores and all locations as long as the buyer comes from another country. I'm not aware of any peculiarities of US legislation or Pentax USA rules.

One can certainly read into the closed thread that it was against a particular store, but I really don't see that this is the only way of reading it -- to me it is certainly not the most natural one. Everyone who knows Wheatfield knows that if he had wanted to attack a particular store that the post would have reflected that much more strongly. Note that he wrote "The same would be true of an American buying from Canada's ProDigital" stating that this is not about B&H only.

Note also that Wheatfield was unhappy about B&H handled the discussion and making that point without a specific store references would not have been possible.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kim C Quote
It appears to me from all the threads that if there is a problem, it is caused by the policy of Pentax USA and not one particular seller.
I'm not sure about that. Others are not sure about other things:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill_R Quote
I don't think the thread really reached any solid conclusion and was possibly heading down the wrong path but I also think the issue has not really been clarified and I think it is an issue that needs a conclusion for those of us outside the US.

That's why I believe that the thread should not have been closed. Too many questions remain unanswered.

Note that Bill_R also wrote the he won't start a similar thread because of what happened. I'm sure you will agree that Bill_R does not appear to be intending to attack a particular store. Yet, as a result of the moderator actions and the lack of their explanation, a member will now not be able to enquire about a valid issue (that is independent from B&H).

QuoteOriginally posted by Kim C Quote
I did not join to read what seems to me to be some people having a go at particular vendor(s).
  1. I don't agree that it is fair to characterise Wheatfield's thread as a "go at a particular vendor". He just tried to alert people to a potential issue. That issue also exists with other stores.
  2. To enjoy any forum, you'll have to just ignore some threads. There are plenty that suit your description. This particular thread may be an exception because it is about fundamental forum ethics but in general people should stay out of threads about topics they dissaprove of.

Last edited by Class A; 06-01-2011 at 08:38 PM.
06-02-2011, 01:18 AM   #45
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Yes I did read it! That is the strong impression you gave me. sorry but that is the way it came across.

Kim

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Did you actually read my original post? I talked specifically about buying from the US, and I mentioned both B&H and Adorama, plus " any of the other American mail order companies".
Do I need to list them all by name to satisfy you?
Perhaps you should go back and read it again. I can guarantee you I haven't changed a thing.
Certainly one of the points of the thread was that the B&H representatives who post here seem a little less than knowledgeable about what grey market products are, but that was only because they were the ones that stood up and expressed ignorance.
I felt it important for non USA buyers from USA suppliers to know that they were buying grey market products because (and only because) they are end running their home turf suppliers, which is exactly the opposite of that one of the B&H reps stated publicly.
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