[dgaies]

That's not true. PayPal to some extent, and Ebay to a greater extent, stack disputes in favour of the buyer but it is hardly a one way street. I've had exactly two disputes as a seller, and won both, because I could show the claims being made were false. I've also had to open two disputes as a buyer, and won one of them easily, but the other I didn't, because there wasn't enough information available to PayPal to decide it in my favour. They sided with the seller due to a lack of information from either party. I could understand it to a degree, but I was less than thrilled, naturally. All four of these disputes were NOT involving Ebay.

You'll find that Ebay's much advertised Buyer Protection doesn't apply to a lot of things, like sending money rather than being invoiced through Ebay. Off Ebay, PayPal takes a different stance on disputes. It's far from automatically decided for the buyer in these cases. The point is, if you send it as a personal payment, you can't even open the dispute (or if you do, they'll ignore it and want to know why you were evading fees). Sellers shouldn't have 100% of the protection either.

Regardless of what they say, eBay basically protects the buyer, not the seller. It's slightly more balanced with a PayPal transaction outside of eBay, but I still think that generally speaking the buyer has more protection. Now, this could be a function of the fact that if there is an issue, it's far more likely to be an issue with the seller than the buyer.

And you're right, sending a personal payment gives the buyer no protection at all. It's effectively no different than sending the seller cash, or a check or a money order. It's basically the electronic version of sending a check or cash. As I stated earlier, I wouldn't recommend that a buyer pay with a personal payment unless he/she knows the seller. But as a seller, if a buyer asks to send a payment this way in exchange for a reduction in price equal to the paypal fees, I have no problem with that and will gladly oblige.

[SteveM]

Regardless of what they say, eBay basically protects the buyer, not the seller. It's slightly more balanced with a PayPal transaction outside of eBay, but I still think that generally speaking the buyer has more protection.

I would go a step further and state that paypal is risky for a seller. There are a number of sites tracking paypal issues and those issues are rampant. If someone receives your lens/camera, and swaps it out for a brick, takes a picture of your package with the brick sitting inside, then files a dispute, how is Paypal going to know what really happened? Because Paypal has no way of confirming what is happening, they will almost always side with a buyer.

paypalsucks.com is an interesting site for reporting issues with paypal. Consumerwatch recommends the following:

- Avoid leaving large sums in any money transfer service account.

- Try to limit your use of money transfer services like PayPal to smaller purchases (transactions under $500 or so). Consider an escrow service for larger purchases.

- When possible, use a credit card for purchases to protect yourself against fraud or unauthorized charges.

- Finally, diversify. If you run an online business, consider using more than one payment service. If you're a buyer, use PayPal or another service when that method makes sense, but don't forget that sometimes even a good old-fashioned paper check may be a better option.

[dgaies]

I would go a step further and state that paypal is risky for a seller. There are a number of sites tracking paypal issues and those issues are rampant. If someone receives your lens/camera, and swaps it out for a brick, takes a picture of your package with the brick sitting inside, then files a dispute, how is Paypal going to know what really happened? Because Paypal has no way of confirming what is happening, they will almost always side with a buyer.

Perhaps I was trying a little too hard to not sound biased in my previous post. I do agree that from everything I've read/heard, PayPal's policies in terms of protection seem quite heavily stacked in the buyer's favor, making things a bit riskier for sellers.

[Philoslothical]

If someone receives your lens/camera, and swaps it out for a brick, takes a picture of your package with the brick sitting inside, then files a dispute, how is Paypal going to know what really happened? Because Paypal has no way of confirming what is happening, they will almost always side with a buyer.

Generally, PayPal will look at your past transaction history, Ebay sales and feedback (if applicable), and anything else they can easily dig up on you. If you're an experienced seller with a good reputation, you don't have too much to worry about from this kind of scam.

You need to worry a lot more about a buyer deciding he doesn't like an item, smashing it, and then taking pictures of the broken item in the packaging. You should ALWAYS always always thoroughly document the item, pictures of it before sending, pictures of the packaging, and if it's a big ticket item have it packaged by the Post Office themselves. At least with damaged items you can often be reimbursed by the Post Office, even if it was actually the buyer that damaged it (of course you wouldn't know that with surety anyway).

If you're a newbie seller, you're a lot more vulnerable. That's true of many businesses though. Those that exploit and scam in a given field/area will always target the new and ill prepared first.

- Avoid leaving large sums in any money transfer service account.

- Try to limit your use of money transfer services like PayPal to smaller purchases (transactions under $500 or so). Consider an escrow service for larger purchases.

These two points are good advice, and you're right, that site is interesting. PayPal is a fickle one. They can be great for someone for years, then just suddenly turn on you seemingly without reason. They're way under-regulated IMO, and don't always make the best decisions. Still, for many people it's currently the best and most pervasive gateway available.

Credit cards, especially when used online, pose their own set of risks, but I think that's a bit beyond the scope of the topic. Cheques, well, they don't provide any buyer protection at all.

[SteveM]

Cheques, well, they don't provide any buyer protection at all.

Without trying to get too far off topic, I've wondered about this. I have in the past negotiated with a buyer that I will ship a couple of weeks after the cheque clears the bank. That way if there is an issue, we'll know about it before the item leaves my hands. Of course it causes a delay in the buyer getting the item, but so far I am unaware of any risk associated with it....??

[les3547]

That's not true. PayPal to some extent, and Ebay to a greater extent, stack disputes in favour of the buyer but it is hardly a one way street.

Of course, I was referring to the more or less collegial trades that take place at hobbyist sites. My first transaction at Audiogon was my only bad one, where as a total newbie I bought an older D/A converter from a guy named "Vinnie" in New Jersey and who wouldn't give me his phone number. The thing that arrived reeked of smoke, and only would work for a day before conking out for several days (I guess while it rested) and then would work again for a day.

Otherwise, here and elsewhere I've enjoyed and counted on the integrity that fellow enthusiasts seem to value. I personally really like the PP option for the reasons I said . . . I know the money is in my account, deal is done, and I can safely turn my attention to my next object of lust.

[Philoslothical]

Cheques, well, they don't provide any buyer protection at all.

Without trying to get too far off topic, I've wondered about this. I have in the past negotiated with a buyer that I will ship a couple of weeks after the cheque clears the bank. That way if there is an issue, we'll know about it before the item leaves my hands. Of course it causes a delay in the buyer getting the item, but so far I am unaware of any risk associated with it....??

You must have misread. I said that paying by cheque offers no protection to the buyer. If the item never arrives, is DOA, or otherwise incorrect, there is nothing the buyer can do. The money has already cleared the bank.

[Blue]

You are correct. The only way to have a transaction be truly ""fee free" is to have your bank account linked and and have PayPal take the payment directly from your bank account (or PayPal balance, although I never keep anything in my PayPal account). Technically they probably still make a little money on the transaction because there is a usually day or two of lag during which they happily collect interest on your money before you have access to it back in your bank account. I've had a PayPal account for 12 years and have always had it linked to my bank account so that aspect has never been a major cause for concern. Then again, when I started my PayPal account in grad school, I only had a few hundred dollars in my bank account, so I suppose the potential risk was far less than it would be now

I didn't realize this and have in fact paid 3% to at least one person at PF even though I paid directly from a bank account. Damn. And the person didn't even leave me positive feed back on the purchase of $585.

[dgaies]

I didn't realize this and have in fact paid 3% to at least one person at PF even though I paid directly from a bank account. Damn. And the person didn't even leave me positive feed back on the purchase of $585.

Well, just keep in mind it has to be paid via bank account (or paypal balance) and be sent as a "Personal Payment" (not as a "Purchase"). If you send money as a "Purchase", even if it is funded from a bank account (or Paypal balance), the recipient of the money will still be charged 2.9% + $0.30.