Suggestion Marketplace PayPal payments

Frostie · 08-31-2011, 07:09 AM

I have a suggestion for the Marketplace. The listings that really frustrate me are the ones that say to add PayPal fees or to send payment as a "gift".

Most listings I've looked at offer PayPal as the ONLY payment method. Then, in the listing, the seller states "add 3% for PayPal fees". A seller chooses his payment options. When he lists PayPal as the only method accepted, he should assume responsibility for the fees associated with receiving the money. If a buyer could send a money order, the cost would usually be under $1. My bank actually will cut a money order for one of their customers no charge!!

Sending payment as a "gift" is even worse! First, PayPal lists "gift" as a personal payment to send money for a birthday or other special occasion. Buying an item in the marketplace does not fit this description. Also, if you review PayPal Buyer Protections, they apply to goods sold, not just eBay sales. All you need to do is click on "send money" and then select "purchase goods". As long as the item you are purchasing qualifies (and most photo related items would), PayPal offers the buyer protections (full refund) including ~ not receiving the item or if the item is significantly different than described. When a marketplace seller requires PayPal payment and wants it sent as a "gift", the seller is robbing the buyer of these built in protections!!

I suggest adding a new rule to marketplace selling that restricts sending payment as a "gift" or requiring the buyer to add 3% to cover fees. The only cost that should be added to a selling price is shipping/insurance.

daacon · 08-31-2011, 07:50 AM

I would agree if you want 3% more work it into the price. It's like the $199 flight to Mexico - add to cart - and all of sudden it becomes $600 yet the $499.00 flight add to cart is the same $600.00. I think all prices should be static with the only variable being in the shipping as that cost varies by location.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 08:08 AM

When I sell something, I accept PayPal and don't charge an additional "fee". That said, if someone wants to send the payment as a "Personal Payment", I'll gladly subtract 3% off the price. In my mind, it's the buyer's choice. If the buyer wants to save 3% by using a personal payment and give up the "paypal protection", then I certainly have no objection on my end as I will net the same amount either way. Anyone who has ever had a transaction with me knows that there is zero risk regardless of how you pay, so from my point of view (and my buyer's) there is no additional risk by using a personal payment. That said, if you're buying from someone without a solid feedback history, it's probably best to stick with the conventional payment that offers you some (albeit not much) protection.

So in the case of a seller that adds 3% to the price unless it is by a personal payment, it's effectively the same thing. The only difference is that the "advertised" price excludes the paypal fees and therefore requires the buyer to take that into account when comparings different for sale ads. I suppose having a uniform rule would make it easier to compare different for sale ads, but at the end of the day the PF Marketplace is effectively a collection of online classified ads. I don't have a fundamental objection to a seller asking for a certain amount of money "net to the them", so long as the terms are clear and uniform to all buyers.

**ChipB** · 08-31-2011, 08:39 AM

My .02 - I get irritated when the seller want's an additional 3 percent and generally pass over those items.

Mr Seller - if the 3 percent is so important to you, add it to your selling price!! That way, I see ONE price (plus shipping).

I've been selling on eekbay for over 10 years and simply accept the PayPal fees as a cost of doing business.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by ChipB

My .02 - I get irritated when the seller want's an additional 3 percent and generally pass over those items.

I am fairly certain most people would agree with you, and that's exactly why as a seller I think it's generally unwise to explicitly ask for an additional 3% to cover the paypal fees. It's simply not worth the risk of losing a potential buyer. That said, as a buyer, I (personally) don't care either way as I'm only interested in the total price; If I have to add 3% to the price before deciding if I want to buy something, so be it

Colbyt · 08-31-2011, 03:34 PM

+1, 2 and 3, with no disrespect intended to those who have listed that way. Ever time I see one of those ads, I want to scream, "Grow up, it is the cost of doing business." Inflate your price like everyone else does or eat the expense.

To be honest it is the most disgusting thing I have seen in the marketplace. It may even be a violation of PP rules for premier members.

Frostie · 08-31-2011, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Colbyt

+1, 2 and 3, with no disrespect intended to those who have listed that way. Ever time I see one of those ads, I want to scream, "Grow up, it is the cost of doing business." Inflate your price like everyone else does or eat the expense.

To be honest it is the most disgusting thing I have seen in the marketplace. It may even be a violation of PP rules for premier members.

I just came from the PP website and you are right. I didn't know this previously. I found the following under the PayPal User Agreement for all PayPal users, not just specific members:

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Colbyt

It may even be a violation of PP rules for premier members.

I think we've have this debate before and I don't think we came to any conclusion other than it's a potential PP issue, but not a PF marketplace issue to deal with. That said, it should be a moot point because as you pointed out, the practice generally pisses off potential buyers. And as a seller, it seems like a bad idea to irritate potential customers.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Frostie

I just came from the PP website and you are right. I didn't know this previously. I found the following under the PayPal User Agreement for all PayPal users, not just specific members:

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

And people aren't suppose to drive over 65 MPH on the highway, but it happens

Of course PayPal has the first rule as they lose income every time you send a personal payment instead of a regular payment for goods and services. But if I'm selling a lens to someone I know, there's no way either of us have any desire/intention of paying a fee on the transaction for "protection" that neither of wants nor cares about. That to me is the very definition of a "personal payment". If you look under the "personal" tab for payments on PayPal, there is a choice for "payment owed". To me, that fits my above scenario perfectly

Frostie · 08-31-2011, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by dgaies

I think we've have this debate before and I don't think we came to any conclusion other than it's a potential PP issue, but not a PF marketplace issue to deal with. That said, it should be a moot point because as you pointed out, the practice generally pisses off potential buyers. And as a seller, it seems like a bad idea to irritate potential customers.

You've got me laughing!!! You have a great way with words and sure put things into perspective. Yup, you are right that it pisses off buyers...or in my case, just irritates me and I pass on that item. I guess my attitude is because I've sold a few things on eBay. When I do, I charge actual shipping and no handling fees. I just accept the eBay and PayPal fees as the "cost of doing business".

The previous debate you mentioned must have been before I joined the forum. I'm sure it would have been interesting to read! I think I will search the archives and see if I can find it.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Frostie

You've got me laughing!!! You have a great way with words and sure put things into perspective. Yup, you are right that it pisses off buyers...or in my case, just irritates me and I pass on that item. I guess my attitude is because I've sold a few things on eBay. When I do, I charge actual shipping and no handling fees. I just accept the eBay and PayPal fees as the "cost of doing business".

I think we're in overall agreement here. I perhaps go one step further as I am perfectly willing to reduce my price by the amount I'll save should someone want to pay via a method that doesn't cost me those fees (whether that's with cash, a check, a money order or a personal payment on paypal).

Originally posted by Frostie

The previous debate you mentioned must have been before I joined the forum. I'm sure it would have been interesting to read! I think I will search the archives and see if I can find it.

Here's the specific one I remember participating in.

Frostie · 08-31-2011, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by dgaies

And people aren't suppose to drive over 65 MPH on the highway, but it happens

Of course PayPal has the first rule as they lose income every time you send a personal payment instead of a regular payment for goods and services. But if I'm selling a lens to someone I know, there's no way either of us have any desire/intention of paying a fee on the transaction for "protection" that neither of wants nor cares about. That to me is the very definition of a "personal payment". If you look under the "personal" tab for payments on PayPal, there is a choice for "payment owed". To me, that fits my above scenario perfectly

Indeed! I hate paying fees too and it gets old. But, for security reasons, I don't use my bank account with PayPal. I'm just not that trusting. I have "plastic" registered with them. So, since I use a card, if I send a personal payment, I'm charged 2.9% plus $ .30 (now HOW did they come up with that formula??) with the receiver not being charged. The only way a personal payment is completely, totally free to both parties is if a bank account is used.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Frostie

Indeed! I hate paying fees too and it gets old. But, for security reasons, I don't use my bank account with PayPal. I'm just not that trusting. I have "plastic" registered with them. So, since I use a card, if I send a personal payment, I'm charged 2.9% plus $ .30 (now HOW did they come up with that formula??) with the receiver not being charged. The only way a personal payment is completely, totally free to both parties is if a bank account is used.

You are correct. The only way to have a transaction be truly ""fee free" is to have your bank account linked and and have PayPal take the payment directly from your bank account (or PayPal balance, although I never keep anything in my PayPal account). Technically they probably still make a little money on the transaction because there is a usually day or two of lag during which they happily collect interest on your money before you have access to it back in your bank account. I've had a PayPal account for 12 years and have always had it linked to my bank account so that aspect has never been a major cause for concern. Then again, when I started my PayPal account in grad school, I only had a few hundred dollars in my bank account, so I suppose the potential risk was far less than it would be now

Colbyt · 08-31-2011, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Frostie

Indeed! I hate paying fees too and it gets old. But, for security reasons, I don't use my bank account with PayPal. I'm just not that trusting. I have "plastic" registered with them. So, since I use a card, if I send a personal payment, I'm charged 2.9% plus $ .30 (now HOW did they come up with that formula??) with the receiver not being charged. The only way a personal payment is completely, totally free to both parties is if a bank account is used.

Or if you send from a PP balance.

Speaking as one who accepts payments on one or more sites, I want to assure you that the fees PayPal charges are the best in the USA for for small volume operations. There is no upfront or monthly expense. Most processors charge either the upfront or monthly, some charge both and the small volume user still pays about the same transaction cost.

If that does not make you want to ask for a 3% cash discount everywhere CC are accepted I don't know what else to say. The money sharks are costing all of us 3% everywhere we make a purchase.

dgaies · 08-31-2011, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Colbyt

If that does not make you want to ask for a 3% cash discount everywhere CC are accepted I don't know what else to say. The money sharks are costing all of us 3% everywhere we make a purchase.

You're correct.

Many gas stations around here have a 3% discount for paying in cash. Furniture stores will happily discount your purchase by 3% if you pay with cash. I can think of quite a few transactions in recent memory where I either took advantage of a cash discount or was at the very least offered one.

08-31-2011, 07:09 AM	#1
Frostie Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 124	Marketplace PayPal payments I have a suggestion for the Marketplace. The listings that really frustrate me are the ones that say to add PayPal fees or to send payment as a "gift". Most listings I've looked at offer PayPal as the ONLY payment method. Then, in the listing, the seller states "add 3% for PayPal fees". A seller chooses his payment options. When he lists PayPal as the only method accepted, he should assume responsibility for the fees associated with receiving the money. If a buyer could send a money order, the cost would usually be under $1. My bank actually will cut a money order for one of their customers no charge!! Sending payment as a "gift" is even worse! First, PayPal lists "gift" as a personal payment to send money for a birthday or other special occasion. Buying an item in the marketplace does not fit this description. Also, if you review PayPal Buyer Protections, they apply to goods sold, not just eBay sales. All you need to do is click on "send money" and then select "purchase goods". As long as the item you are purchasing qualifies (and most photo related items would), PayPal offers the buyer protections (full refund) including ~ not receiving the item or if the item is significantly different than described. When a marketplace seller requires PayPal payment and wants it sent as a "gift", the seller is robbing the buyer of these built in protections!! I suggest adding a new rule to marketplace selling that restricts sending payment as a "gift" or requiring the buyer to add 3% to cover fees. The only cost that should be added to a selling price is shipping/insurance.

08-31-2011, 08:08 AM	#3
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	When I sell something, I accept PayPal and don't charge an additional "fee". That said, if someone wants to send the payment as a "Personal Payment", I'll gladly subtract 3% off the price. In my mind, it's the buyer's choice. If the buyer wants to save 3% by using a personal payment and give up the "paypal protection", then I certainly have no objection on my end as I will net the same amount either way. Anyone who has ever had a transaction with me knows that there is zero risk regardless of how you pay, so from my point of view (and my buyer's) there is no additional risk by using a personal payment. That said, if you're buying from someone without a solid feedback history, it's probably best to stick with the conventional payment that offers you some (albeit not much) protection. So in the case of a seller that adds 3% to the price unless it is by a personal payment, it's effectively the same thing. The only difference is that the "advertised" price excludes the paypal fees and therefore requires the buyer to take that into account when comparings different for sale ads. I suppose having a uniform rule would make it easier to compare different for sale ads, but at the end of the day the PF Marketplace is effectively a collection of online classified ads. I don't have a fundamental objection to a seller asking for a certain amount of money "net to the them", so long as the terms are clear and uniform to all buyers. Last edited by dgaies; 08-31-2011 at 08:15 AM.

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08-31-2011, 07:50 AM	#2
daacon Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Alberta,Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 20,914	I would agree if you want 3% more work it into the price. It's like the $199 flight to Mexico - add to cart - and all of sudden it becomes $600 yet the $499.00 flight add to cart is the same $600.00. I think all prices should be static with the only variable being in the shipping as that cost varies by location.

08-31-2011, 08:39 AM	#4
ChipB Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Eau Claire, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,701	My .02 - I get irritated when the seller want's an additional 3 percent and generally pass over those items. Mr Seller - if the 3 percent is so important to you, add it to your selling price!! That way, I see ONE price (plus shipping). I've been selling on eekbay for over 10 years and simply accept the PayPal fees as a cost of doing business.

08-31-2011, 10:21 AM	#5
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by ChipB My .02 - I get irritated when the seller want's an additional 3 percent and generally pass over those items. I am fairly certain most people would agree with you, and that's exactly why as a seller I think it's generally unwise to explicitly ask for an additional 3% to cover the paypal fees. It's simply not worth the risk of losing a potential buyer. That said, as a buyer, I (personally) don't care either way as I'm only interested in the total price; If I have to add 3% to the price before deciding if I want to buy something, so be it

08-31-2011, 03:34 PM	#6
Colbyt Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Kentucky Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,417	+1, 2 and 3, with no disrespect intended to those who have listed that way. Ever time I see one of those ads, I want to scream, "Grow up, it is the cost of doing business." Inflate your price like everyone else does or eat the expense. To be honest it is the most disgusting thing I have seen in the marketplace. It may even be a violation of PP rules for premier members.

08-31-2011, 04:14 PM	#7
Frostie Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 124 Original Poster	Originally posted by Colbyt +1, 2 and 3, with no disrespect intended to those who have listed that way. Ever time I see one of those ads, I want to scream, "Grow up, it is the cost of doing business." Inflate your price like everyone else does or eat the expense. To be honest it is the most disgusting thing I have seen in the marketplace. It may even be a violation of PP rules for premier members. I just came from the PP website and you are right. I didn't know this previously. I found the following under the PayPal User Agreement for all PayPal users, not just specific members: 4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments. 4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

08-31-2011, 04:14 PM	#8
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by Colbyt It may even be a violation of PP rules for premier members. I think we've have this debate before and I don't think we came to any conclusion other than it's a potential PP issue, but not a PF marketplace issue to deal with. That said, it should be a moot point because as you pointed out, the practice generally pisses off potential buyers. And as a seller, it seems like a bad idea to irritate potential customers.

08-31-2011, 04:19 PM	#9
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by Frostie I just came from the PP website and you are right. I didn't know this previously. I found the following under the PayPal User Agreement for all PayPal users, not just specific members: 4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments. 4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions. And people aren't suppose to drive over 65 MPH on the highway, but it happens Of course PayPal has the first rule as they lose income every time you send a personal payment instead of a regular payment for goods and services. But if I'm selling a lens to someone I know, there's no way either of us have any desire/intention of paying a fee on the transaction for "protection" that neither of wants nor cares about. That to me is the very definition of a "personal payment". If you look under the "personal" tab for payments on PayPal, there is a choice for "payment owed". To me, that fits my above scenario perfectly

08-31-2011, 04:29 PM	#10
Frostie Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 124 Original Poster	Originally posted by dgaies I think we've have this debate before and I don't think we came to any conclusion other than it's a potential PP issue, but not a PF marketplace issue to deal with. That said, it should be a moot point because as you pointed out, the practice generally pisses off potential buyers. And as a seller, it seems like a bad idea to irritate potential customers. You've got me laughing!!! You have a great way with words and sure put things into perspective. Yup, you are right that it pisses off buyers...or in my case, just irritates me and I pass on that item. I guess my attitude is because I've sold a few things on eBay. When I do, I charge actual shipping and no handling fees. I just accept the eBay and PayPal fees as the "cost of doing business". The previous debate you mentioned must have been before I joined the forum. I'm sure it would have been interesting to read! I think I will search the archives and see if I can find it.

08-31-2011, 04:34 PM	#11
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by Frostie You've got me laughing!!! You have a great way with words and sure put things into perspective. Yup, you are right that it pisses off buyers...or in my case, just irritates me and I pass on that item. I guess my attitude is because I've sold a few things on eBay. When I do, I charge actual shipping and no handling fees. I just accept the eBay and PayPal fees as the "cost of doing business". I think we're in overall agreement here. I perhaps go one step further as I am perfectly willing to reduce my price by the amount I'll save should someone want to pay via a method that doesn't cost me those fees (whether that's with cash, a check, a money order or a personal payment on paypal). Originally posted by Frostie The previous debate you mentioned must have been before I joined the forum. I'm sure it would have been interesting to read! I think I will search the archives and see if I can find it. Here's the specific one I remember participating in.

08-31-2011, 04:39 PM	#12
Frostie Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 124 Original Poster	Originally posted by dgaies And people aren't suppose to drive over 65 MPH on the highway, but it happens Of course PayPal has the first rule as they lose income every time you send a personal payment instead of a regular payment for goods and services. But if I'm selling a lens to someone I know, there's no way either of us have any desire/intention of paying a fee on the transaction for "protection" that neither of wants nor cares about. That to me is the very definition of a "personal payment". If you look under the "personal" tab for payments on PayPal, there is a choice for "payment owed". To me, that fits my above scenario perfectly Indeed! I hate paying fees too and it gets old. But, for security reasons, I don't use my bank account with PayPal. I'm just not that trusting. I have "plastic" registered with them. So, since I use a card, if I send a personal payment, I'm charged 2.9% plus $ .30 (now HOW did they come up with that formula??) with the receiver not being charged. The only way a personal payment is completely, totally free to both parties is if a bank account is used.

08-31-2011, 04:53 PM	#13
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by Frostie Indeed! I hate paying fees too and it gets old. But, for security reasons, I don't use my bank account with PayPal. I'm just not that trusting. I have "plastic" registered with them. So, since I use a card, if I send a personal payment, I'm charged 2.9% plus $ .30 (now HOW did they come up with that formula??) with the receiver not being charged. The only way a personal payment is completely, totally free to both parties is if a bank account is used. You are correct. The only way to have a transaction be truly ""fee free" is to have your bank account linked and and have PayPal take the payment directly from your bank account (or PayPal balance, although I never keep anything in my PayPal account). Technically they probably still make a little money on the transaction because there is a usually day or two of lag during which they happily collect interest on your money before you have access to it back in your bank account. I've had a PayPal account for 12 years and have always had it linked to my bank account so that aspect has never been a major cause for concern. Then again, when I started my PayPal account in grad school, I only had a few hundred dollars in my bank account, so I suppose the potential risk was far less than it would be now

08-31-2011, 04:55 PM	#14
Colbyt Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Central Kentucky Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,417	Originally posted by Frostie Indeed! I hate paying fees too and it gets old. But, for security reasons, I don't use my bank account with PayPal. I'm just not that trusting. I have "plastic" registered with them. So, since I use a card, if I send a personal payment, I'm charged 2.9% plus $ .30 (now HOW did they come up with that formula??) with the receiver not being charged. The only way a personal payment is completely, totally free to both parties is if a bank account is used. Or if you send from a PP balance. Speaking as one who accepts payments on one or more sites, I want to assure you that the fees PayPal charges are the best in the USA for for small volume operations. There is no upfront or monthly expense. Most processors charge either the upfront or monthly, some charge both and the small volume user still pays about the same transaction cost. If that does not make you want to ask for a 3% cash discount everywhere CC are accepted I don't know what else to say. The money sharks are costing all of us 3% everywhere we make a purchase.

08-31-2011, 05:03 PM	#15
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by Colbyt If that does not make you want to ask for a 3% cash discount everywhere CC are accepted I don't know what else to say. The money sharks are costing all of us 3% everywhere we make a purchase. You're correct. Many gas stations around here have a 3% discount for paying in cash. Furniture stores will happily discount your purchase by 3% if you pay with cash. I can think of quite a few transactions in recent memory where I either took advantage of a cash discount or was at the very least offered one.