Suggestion Ban "Net To Me" Marketplace Posts

**germar** · 11-02-2013, 06:38 AM - **1 Like**

The use of "net to me" wording in the marketplace, in my opinion, creates misleading sale posts and creates unneeded confusion among prospective buyers. It is basically false advertising, because the seller posts the item at a price that he won't actually accept. This sends a negative message about the marketplace and the sellers that frequent here.

This whole "net to me" business started when there was a glut of K-7 bodies on the marketplace and someone got the wise idea of posting a lowball price based on stripping away the Paypal charge. It is now a gotcha that bucks the rules of Paypal and credit charges in general, that the merchant pays the fees, not the seller.

I think the marketplace community would be a friendlier, more upstanding place if the "net to me" pricing bait and switch trick is officially frowned upon by the PF community.

Thanks,

Germar

alamo5000 · 11-02-2013, 06:42 AM

Eh, I don't have a problem with it. In the end the MP is like a garage sale where you have liberty to negotiate (or not negotiate) in private...

Plus there are various forms of payment out there etc etc and plus if I quote a price for some guy in Omaha it won't be the same as selling to someone in Budapest. Shipping varies widely depending on what the BUYER wants. Some people say 'let it get here when it gets here' and others are 'I want it now'....

It's impossible to take into account every scenario hence people revert to the net to me comment.

Fat Albert · 11-02-2013, 06:51 AM

I agree with the OP. A posted/stated price is traditionally the amount that changes hands. You never see a retailer post a price that's labeled as 'Our Profit'--why should the marketplace be any different? Variability in shipping charges can be addressed as 'Shipping: location dependent--I'll give you a quote'. If the seller wants a set amount plus fees, they should calculate that amount beforehand and post it.

**monochrome** · 11-02-2013, 07:00 AM

On the one hand the Marketplace is my retail store. As the seller, I should cover the overhead - with an allowance made for shipping, which the buyer may specify, at the preference and risk of the seller.

On the other hand, I tire of do-gooders seeking to protect me from what they suppose is my own ignorance. Why should Adam be Big Brother and protect poor, defenseless Marketplace consumers from their own inability to correctly read a post, determine the true selling price, make a buy / no buy decision and act afterward? (read this paragraph as sarcasm - people are smart enough to figure it out when the PM comes back with the real charge).

It is the SELLER who takes the risk of an obfuscated post that turns interested buyers away, not the BUYER who risks becoming the victim of a bait and switch posting. Eventually the negative connotations of "Net-to-Me" selling language will disappear in true Social Darwinian evolution.

UPDATE 11/03: There's a sale of a complete kit - body, several lenses, accessories - at prices that piqued my interest, despite my oath to stop until I have a K3. Reading and looking, I was wavering - right up to the last line of the text. "Paypal Fees Extra."

Thank you for strengthening my resolve.

Last edited by monochrome; 11-03-2013 at 07:56 AM.

**Rondec** · 11-02-2013, 07:25 AM

I sort have a problem with the seller shifting pay pal charges on to the purchaser. Those are to be paid by the seller and should be included in the asking price. Shipping is a little tougher, since if you decide to allow for world wide purchasing, shipping can vary dramatically. If shipping to Australia is 40 dollars, but shipping to St Louis is 5 dollars, I think it is reasonable to say that shipping will vary based on location.

**jatrax** · 11-02-2013, 07:32 AM - **2 Likes**

Don`t know if it should be a rule for the MP or not.

But my rule is if it says "net to seller" I walk away. PayPal fees are overhead and should be born by the seller. Advertising one price and then asking for the fees on top is not something I feel comfortable with.

But that`s my choice. The seller loses a potential customer, but that`s their choice.

causey · 11-02-2013, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

The seller loses a potential customer, but that`s their choice.

They aren't making any choice unless you let them know of your intention to skip their business

Adam · 11-02-2013, 10:27 PM

This is something we discourage for sure. Sellers should include all fees in the final price, and perhaps offer discounts for non-paypal purchases if that's warranted.

However, it isn't realistic for us to moderate this or force sellers to list in a particular way. We want to give buyers as much freedom as possible while ensuring that the Marketplace is a safe place to do business.

**jatrax** · 11-02-2013, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by causey

They aren't making any choice unless you let them know of your intention to skip their business

I just did

p38arover · 11-03-2013, 02:30 AM

I don't mind if it's stated up-front.

Obviously, freight/postage varies quite a lot and I know it's going to be expensive to ship to me in Australia. I don't expect the seller to cover that.

Mostly, I'm really pleased when a seller will ship to Oz.

**Ash** · 11-03-2013, 02:48 AM

Open disclosure of total costs should be available to the buyer regardless of the wording of the ad. Transparency and honesty ensures a positive experience on both sides. Buyers have a choice to agree to the sale conditions, and it is only fair that a seller provides the full details to a potential buyer even if by PM. Adam's right though about categorically banning sale ads that contain such wording. It is very difficult to screen them all out, and it would create more friction amongst the sellers than necessary.

Hogboy · 11-03-2013, 03:10 AM

Great post germar !!
the ability to buy and sell on this forum is a very valuable option
No hideous Ebay seller fees and a wide pentax owning audience.
if i ever see an seller expecting me to cover their Paypal fee's, they have automatically lost a potential customer.

atupdate · 11-03-2013, 05:08 AM

I normally list all of my for sale items to include the fee. But it isn't that difficult to add the 3% fee yourself (multiply the net to me price by 1.03) or to PM the seller for a final price estimate (with shipping).

What bothers me more are people that remove the listed price once the item is sold. I like to check the going rate for things before I even consider what price to ask for an item. Even if the sold price is less than the listed price, it at least provides a "starting" price for a new listing.

Tim

Tom S. · 11-03-2013, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by newmikey

So "it isn't realistic for us to moderate this or force sellers to list in a particular way" when it comes to wrongly advertising a price that does not include Paypal costs, yet the moderation team was on me in a flash for not offering Paypal as a payment option in an EU sale?

This is so wrong in so many ways! You rigidly enforce usage of paypal by any seller in order to "protect the buyer" yet you allow that seller to advertise unreal prices that do not include all charges to the uyer up front?

I took whatever sales I had down immediately and will not either sell or purchase an item anymore via this forum. I love the forum, but that part of it is broken and not trustworthy to me anymore.

Tell the whole story, not half of it. We do not endorse, nor force anyone to use PayPal. We do however require you to use a PayPal type service - there are several out there. And this is enforced for international sales only. Sell within your own country and you can request payment by sea shells if you want. As for it being wrong, you can discuss how wrong it is with the members who were taken by an unscrupulous seller last year for a lot of money.

stormtech · 11-03-2013, 06:18 AM - **2 Likes**

Adam did a great thing for all of us a year or so ago when he changed the MP rules to not allow the PayPal "gift" option.

Now there are a few thinking they can get around this rule using the "net to me" dialog.

For myself, as soon as I see "net to me" in an ad, I automatically discredit the seller and move on.

11-02-2013, 06:38 AM - 1 Like	#1
germar Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Palm Beach, Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 728	Ban "Net To Me" Marketplace Posts The use of "net to me" wording in the marketplace, in my opinion, creates misleading sale posts and creates unneeded confusion among prospective buyers. It is basically false advertising, because the seller posts the item at a price that he won't actually accept. This sends a negative message about the marketplace and the sellers that frequent here. This whole "net to me" business started when there was a glut of K-7 bodies on the marketplace and someone got the wise idea of posting a lowball price based on stripping away the Paypal charge. It is now a gotcha that bucks the rules of Paypal and credit charges in general, that the merchant pays the fees, not the seller. I think the marketplace community would be a friendlier, more upstanding place if the "net to me" pricing bait and switch trick is officially frowned upon by the PF community. Thanks, Germar

11-02-2013, 10:27 PM	#8
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	This is something we discourage for sure. Sellers should include all fees in the final price, and perhaps offer discounts for non-paypal purchases if that's warranted. However, it isn't realistic for us to moderate this or force sellers to list in a particular way. We want to give buyers as much freedom as possible while ensuring that the Marketplace is a safe place to do business. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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11-02-2013, 06:42 AM	#2
alamo5000 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,962	Eh, I don't have a problem with it. In the end the MP is like a garage sale where you have liberty to negotiate (or not negotiate) in private... Plus there are various forms of payment out there etc etc and plus if I quote a price for some guy in Omaha it won't be the same as selling to someone in Budapest. Shipping varies widely depending on what the BUYER wants. Some people say 'let it get here when it gets here' and others are 'I want it now'.... It's impossible to take into account every scenario hence people revert to the net to me comment.

11-02-2013, 06:51 AM	#3
Fat Albert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 966	I agree with the OP. A posted/stated price is traditionally the amount that changes hands. You never see a retailer post a price that's labeled as 'Our Profit'--why should the marketplace be any different? Variability in shipping charges can be addressed as 'Shipping: location dependent--I'll give you a quote'. If the seller wants a set amount plus fees, they should calculate that amount beforehand and post it.

11-02-2013, 07:00 AM	#4
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	On the one hand the Marketplace is my retail store. As the seller, I should cover the overhead - with an allowance made for shipping, which the buyer may specify, at the preference and risk of the seller. On the other hand, I tire of do-gooders seeking to protect me from what they suppose is my own ignorance. Why should Adam be Big Brother and protect poor, defenseless Marketplace consumers from their own inability to correctly read a post, determine the true selling price, make a buy / no buy decision and act afterward? (read this paragraph as sarcasm - people are smart enough to figure it out when the PM comes back with the real charge). It is the SELLER who takes the risk of an obfuscated post that turns interested buyers away, not the BUYER who risks becoming the victim of a bait and switch posting. Eventually the negative connotations of "Net-to-Me" selling language will disappear in true Social Darwinian evolution. UPDATE 11/03: There's a sale of a complete kit - body, several lenses, accessories - at prices that piqued my interest, despite my oath to stop until I have a K3. Reading and looking, I was wavering - right up to the last line of the text. "Paypal Fees Extra." Thank you for strengthening my resolve. Last edited by monochrome; 11-03-2013 at 07:56 AM.

11-02-2013, 07:25 AM	#5
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	I sort have a problem with the seller shifting pay pal charges on to the purchaser. Those are to be paid by the seller and should be included in the asking price. Shipping is a little tougher, since if you decide to allow for world wide purchasing, shipping can vary dramatically. If shipping to Australia is 40 dollars, but shipping to St Louis is 5 dollars, I think it is reasonable to say that shipping will vary based on location.

11-02-2013, 07:32 AM - 2 Likes	#6
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Don`t know if it should be a rule for the MP or not. But my rule is if it says "net to seller" I walk away. PayPal fees are overhead and should be born by the seller. Advertising one price and then asking for the fees on top is not something I feel comfortable with. But that`s my choice. The seller loses a potential customer, but that`s their choice.

11-02-2013, 10:03 PM	#7
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by jatrax The seller loses a potential customer, but that`s their choice. They aren't making any choice unless you let them know of your intention to skip their business

11-02-2013, 10:53 PM	#9
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by causey They aren't making any choice unless you let them know of your intention to skip their business I just did

11-03-2013, 02:30 AM	#10
p38arover Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Western Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,084	I don't mind if it's stated up-front. Obviously, freight/postage varies quite a lot and I know it's going to be expensive to ship to me in Australia. I don't expect the seller to cover that. Mostly, I'm really pleased when a seller will ship to Oz.

11-03-2013, 02:48 AM	#11
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Open disclosure of total costs should be available to the buyer regardless of the wording of the ad. Transparency and honesty ensures a positive experience on both sides. Buyers have a choice to agree to the sale conditions, and it is only fair that a seller provides the full details to a potential buyer even if by PM. Adam's right though about categorically banning sale ads that contain such wording. It is very difficult to screen them all out, and it would create more friction amongst the sellers than necessary.

11-03-2013, 03:10 AM	#12
Hogboy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 105	Great post germar !! the ability to buy and sell on this forum is a very valuable option No hideous Ebay seller fees and a wide pentax owning audience. if i ever see an seller expecting me to cover their Paypal fee's, they have automatically lost a potential customer.

11-03-2013, 05:08 AM	#13
atupdate Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dayton, OH Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,724	I normally list all of my for sale items to include the fee. But it isn't that difficult to add the 3% fee yourself (multiply the net to me price by 1.03) or to PM the seller for a final price estimate (with shipping). What bothers me more are people that remove the listed price once the item is sold. I like to check the going rate for things before I even consider what price to ask for an item. Even if the sold price is less than the listed price, it at least provides a "starting" price for a new listing. Tim

11-03-2013, 06:15 AM	#14
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Originally posted by newmikey So "it isn't realistic for us to moderate this or force sellers to list in a particular way" when it comes to wrongly advertising a price that does not include Paypal costs, yet the moderation team was on me in a flash for not offering Paypal as a payment option in an EU sale? This is so wrong in so many ways! You rigidly enforce usage of paypal by any seller in order to "protect the buyer" yet you allow that seller to advertise unreal prices that do not include all charges to the uyer up front? I took whatever sales I had down immediately and will not either sell or purchase an item anymore via this forum. I love the forum, but that part of it is broken and not trustworthy to me anymore. Tell the whole story, not half of it. We do not endorse, nor force anyone to use PayPal. We do however require you to use a PayPal type service - there are several out there. And this is enforced for international sales only. Sell within your own country and you can request payment by sea shells if you want. As for it being wrong, you can discuss how wrong it is with the members who were taken by an unscrupulous seller last year for a lot of money.

11-03-2013, 06:18 AM - 2 Likes	#15
stormtech Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: In the boonies (NW Penna) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,744	Adam did a great thing for all of us a year or so ago when he changed the MP rules to not allow the PayPal "gift" option. Now there are a few thinking they can get around this rule using the "net to me" dialog. For myself, as soon as I see "net to me" in an ad, I automatically discredit the seller and move on.