[BigMackCam]

This, combined with the fact that there have been cases in people try to constantly force their opinion upon others across multiple threads.

We take an open-minded approach to everyone's opinion, as long as things remain courteous, we expect forum participants to respect this.

Well said, Adam.

I'll also add something that has been alluded to both in the forum rules and in some of my past posts:

This is, to state the obvious, PentaxForums, a brand-specific enthusiast site. Whilst everyone here has a responsibility to be open-minded, friendly, respectful, and to post within the forum rules, those with provocative or potentially-inflammatory opinions to share must also consider what they're posting, how they're presenting those opinions, and take some responsibility for the reactions they might generate.

It's not that provocative - even negative - views can't and shouldn't be aired. But there are ways to put these across constructively and with consideration to the entire membership, and ways that are quite obviously going to cause a stir. It's up to both the original poster of such opinions, and those responding, to initiate and maintain constructive rather than inflammatory discussions

This is one of the things we frequently have to deal with as moderators... Reports of posts that are considered unfriendly, but when we read the original post they were replying to, there's often fault on both sides.

[mwilky55]

This is not one of the fights I need to go to because I've been fortunate to have never had a disagreeable exchange on the forum....I have, though, witnessed enough of them to understand why the moderators felt a need to issue an appeal for greater civility.

What I would like to say, though, is that I feel very fortunate to have access to a forum like this, appreciative of the time and thoughtfulness the moderators invest, and thankful for the many friendly and helpful exchanges (and transactions) I've enjoyed with so many of you forum members.

Peace out.

[RGlasel]

I feel very fortunate to have access to a forum like this, appreciative of the time and thoughtfulness the moderators invest, and thankful for the many friendly and helpful exchanges (and transactions) I've enjoyed with so many of you forum members.

I am in complete agreement with you and would like to thank Adam and the moderators for making this forum work as well as it does. My online presence goes back to the days of Compuserve, I even tried operating my own blog about a decade ago, but now Pentaxforums is it, nothing else. I don't even login to Facebook anymore.

[monochrome]

This is not what's being proposed or discussed here, as far as I can see. But I can tell you as a forums admin elsewhere that they can be quickly be derailed and/or poisoned by incivility and/or baiting/trolling. And incivility doesn't only mean name calling.

Actually, suppression of discussion and contrary opinion is exactly what was proposed.

In light of the revised forum discussion policy. I'm wondering if there could be an area where people could generally discuss issues without directly confronting individual members. The area could be named something like 'Sounding off"
No replies would be allowed in this area, only comments. Of course the moderators would have the final word to publish after reviewing each submission. No profanity or vulgar replies would be allowed, also no direct mention of an individual member as well. In fact it would not be necessary to even publish the member's name associated with each submission, just the comment. This would allow members to get their thoughts across without criticism or confrontation..

I do share the sentiment that the quality of discussion has changed since the early years of the Forum.

[texandrews]

Actually, suppression of discussion and contrary opinion is exactly what was proposed.

I do share the sentiment that the quality of discussion has changed since the early years of the Forum.

Sorry, monochrome. I was referring to the original outreach by the moderators, not the somewhat unwieldy and confusing suggestion by Amegalo.

[monochrome]

Sorry, monochrome. I was referring to the original outreach by the moderators, not the somewhat unwieldy and confusing suggestion by Amegalo.

No apology necessary

.:

[dick897]

Actually, suppression of discussion and contrary opinion is exactly what was proposed.

I do share the sentiment that the quality of discussion has changed since the early years of the Forum.

I must confess, I too thought you were referring to the new guidelines, not, just the suggestion by another member.
All's well that ends well, hopefully

[Hidrieus]

While I think that dismissive and/or demeaning comments indeed need to be checked (I run The LightZone Project website with several others, and we are extremely strict about this...), I also believe that there really are only a handful of problem people from what I can see on the medium format, K1, and full frame forums, plus a couple of others I visit infrequently. I also must question the idea that it's the responders who are most at fault, and not the instigators. To whit:


My suggestion is for the mods to reach out to these individuals directly, and, if necessary, read them the riot act. In particular we seem on these forums to have a few individuals who are consistently negative about Ricoh, Pentax and its/their products, in addition to the doom and gloom group. I go out of my way to be judicious in my responses, but I have to say several of these consistently negative people are getting very tiresome. Only one ever seems to add anything substantive to the discussions, even though these examples themselves can be tendentious, sometimes at best. It's often so bad more than a few of us wonder why they have Pentax gear at all, and why they are here. This continual confrontation on their parts hardly makes this a more pleasant or productive place.

Deal with these very few individuals---I think it's only several, really, and it will go far to cleaning things up. Why give them a pass and blame the responders?

I disagree. If people who use Pentax products and are dissatisfied about some features or lack of them get silenced by moderation, only the positive views will remain. I think the negative views push for improvements not the positive.

[Rondec]

I don't think there is a huge problem here. There are certainly times that people aggravate each other by repeating the same opinions over and over again. The voices tend to get louder and the dialogue a bit more intense until someone says something that later they probably regret.

There are times when it is probably best just to leave arguments and move on because nothing will truly be settled.

[BigMackCam]

I disagree. If people who use Pentax products and are dissatisfied about some features or lack of them get silenced by moderation, only the positive views will remain. I think the negative views push for improvements not the positive.

To be clear, the moderating team does not "silence" anyone, including those who voice dissatisfaction. We intervene when people don't comply with the forum rules, which preclude inflammatory posting and brand-bashing, and when the friendly atmosphere of the forums is disrupted. If dissatisfaction is presented constructively, with consideration to our members and this site's status as a Pentax brand-specific community, then we would never silence that.

This is precisely why I made my previous comment that members must take at least some responsibility for the reactions they generate if they're posting provocative opinions

[Mark H.]

THANK YOU for yesterday's email and additional guidelines, Mike! I like the Pentax Forums because they are among the LEAST contentious forums I frequent. There are so many fine photographers here who generously share their images, knowledge and experience. It is great that our moderators are striving to keep it collegial and supportive. It might help to remember that every time we have something to say, we are talking to friends and not just anonymous screen names.

With kind regards,

Mark H.

[BigMackCam]

THANK YOU for yesterday's email and additional guidelines, Mike! I like the Pentax Forums because they are among the LEAST contentious forums I frequent. There are so many fine photographers here who generously share their images, knowledge and experience. It is great that our moderators are striving to keep it collegial and supportive. It might help to remember that every time we have something to say, we are talking to friends and not just anonymous screen names.

Thank you sincerely, Mark, and to others who've voiced their support - it's truly appreciated

I agree that these are some of the least contentious photography forums, based on my own experience, and the only ones I frequent. Yet we do have some members who can come on too strong and push their opinions or dismiss others, and we're working to improve that. The problem is more complicated than it might first seem, as some of the most opinionated and dismissive folks are also very positive contributors in other ways That aside, there's a lot of moderating activity - PMs, warnings, infractions, temporary and permanent thread bans, temporary and - always a last resort - permanent forum bans - going on behind the scenes that no-one sees, except for the members concerned.

I'd also like to remind everyone that we moderators are also regular forum members. We use these forums for our own enjoyment like every other member here. Our moderating duties are separate, though I appreciate it might sometimes be difficult for other members to see that delineation, especially since we'll often try to deal with certain situations by simply posting in threads rather than penalising people at the drop of a hat. I know some folks believe that as moderators, we're always on duty even when we're posting socially. To some extent, that's true - but we also have opinions of our own, though you'll generally find we try to express them in non-inflammatory ways

All that said, thanks once again for the kind comments. I really liked your closing statement: "Every time we have something to say, we are talking to friends and not just anonymous screen names"... I couldn't agree more, and it applies to everyone posting their views, and those responding to them. If we all took that to heart, there'd me much less need for moderators

[jbinpg]

My only comment is that having a "shouting" section would only add to the mods job jar. I have no delusion that the worst perpetrators will feel satisfied by talking to themselves in a no-reply zone.

[beholder3]

I will always see a system dedicated forum as a public bar dedicated to a specific football team.

Rules:

1. If someone voices a opinion that the team played badly last time he should still be treated nicely.
2. If a person over and over and over calls that team "loser" team (in a forum it is easy to see how many post were positive and how many were negative) and never ever participates in the standard discussions on games, but only (!) in those where he can leave another "loser" comment then he is aggressively out for trouble and needs to be moderated (incl. out of the bar if the behaviour doesnt change).
3. This is a photo forum. Valid criticism by someone really interested is also easy to identify. If you see ten threads of a user asking for help how he can get better with XYZ and he feels there is a limitation on the tool and in the end, after a lot of trying and training he still has issues then that shows a constructive approach.
   If you see people complaining right away without ever asking for help and showing the results of their tries then this is bad intention and could be interpreted as trolling.
   There is a world of difference if someone who regularly posts photos would start complaining about missing super-tele zooms or portrait autofocus versus someone who never even tried showing his interest in images of a certain kind and that his own lack of skill is not the only reason to complain.
4. As the bar generally is there for the supporters of the team to have fun and enjoy their stay anyone who makes the majority uneasy by being negative (he'll call this "criticism") all the time doesnt belong there and should be removed, since this single guys wishes damage the fun for the vast majority.
   I have seen well used forums being left alone by vast users groups after the moderators failed to silence and ban a handful of very active trolls, constantly flamebaiting and calling it "needed criticism". The subforums are practically dead now. The question here is not what the "critical" / trolling minority thinks, but the vast group of supporters.

It usually is not in the interest of a forum Admin to see the majority of supporters leave only to protect and handful of complainers (who do not post images, who do not post a lot of helping hand content in other threads and do not buy the products).


People (non-trolls) come to forum for help and enjoyable discussions and to discuss photos.
Ask yourself if your posts helps, if it contains a photo and if it makes time in the forum enjoyable.

[Dartmoor Dave]

I didn't receive the e-mail with the updated rules, presumably because of the way I've got my account preferences set. Have they been posted somewhere on the forum, or could somebody perhaps copy and paste the e-mail in this thread?