LR : Embedded vs Adobe Default vs Camera Standard

Christopher M.W.T · 05-12-2010, 05:21 AM

I only recently discovered this after nearly a year of shooting raw

I noticed that after taking sunrise photos on Mt Sinai where my in-camera previews were very vibrant replicating the scenes that I actually saw and act.

However when imported into LR the colours were at first bright and vivid until the rendering completed where it turned dull and lifeless, throughout all my photos my bright vibrant yellows and oranges turned dull and I was very annoyed.

However I then played with the calibration profiles where I set it to camera standard and it seemed to replicate the images as I shot them, however I do find camera standard can look fantastic with some photos and a tad too colourful with others.

My question is what does everyone else use and what is the difference between Embedded and the rest?

arpaagent · 05-12-2010, 06:44 AM

I generally use the embedded profile when processing my K-7 shots. If the images come out too unsaturated in LR, then I will just bump up the saturation/vibrance sliders to about 10 or so to bring back the color that I wanted. Some scenes also require a little extra contrast to bring out the colors in the photo.

Also, if you have your camera set to the "Bright" photo option, all your previews will be brighter and more saturated than what the default is in LR. The embedded DNG profile does not take that setting into account, so that may be a culprit here as well.

Christopher M.W.T · 05-12-2010, 07:16 AM

When you say embedded that does refer to the Natural, Bright, Landscape, Muted , etc settings on the camera?

Parallax · 05-12-2010, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by C.W Tsorotes

When you say embedded that does refer to the Natural, Bright, Landscape, Muted , etc settings on the camera?

My guess is that the initial bright display you see is the jpeg preview which displays until LR renders the image from the raw file itself. Try shooting some pics with the camera set to natural and see if, when opened in LR, there isn't less difference between the initial display and the fully rendered view.

Lucky Sky · 05-17-2010, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by C.W Tsorotes

When you say embedded that does refer to the Natural, Bright, Landscape, Muted , etc settings on the camera?

No, you need to go to the tab in LR on the right side (below detail as I recall) named Camera Calibration. In there, you'll find some profiles to choose. Embedded will be there.

I've been using it (embedded) for about a year with my K20D. I'm 100% satisfied.

I've made a preset using that embedded profile plus some other items to get the development process underway while importing the images from the SD card.

Alfisti · 05-19-2010, 09:20 AM

I'm not getting that. I get the following ....

ACR 4.4
Adobe Standard
Adobe Standard 2 beta
Camera Standard
Camera Standard 2 beta

I generally prefer Camera Standard but ACR 4.4 does a far better job with blues. Camera standard shifts purple whereas ACR 4.4 has more cyan so skies and water looks that real sky blue rather than purply blue for want of a better word.

Pain in the arse though TBH.

Lucky Sky · 05-19-2010, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Alfisti

I'm not getting that. I get the following ....

ACR 4.4
Adobe Standard
Adobe Standard 2 beta
Camera Standard
Camera Standard 2 beta

I generally prefer Camera Standard but ACR 4.4 does a far better job with blues. Camera standard shifts purple whereas ACR 4.4 has more cyan so skies and water looks that real sky blue rather than purply blue for want of a better word.

Pain in the arse though TBH.

If you're using the K-7, that might explain why. Modest Mouse (on the other forum) can explain why better than I , but for some reason the camera generated embedded JPEG is available for a K20D Camera Profile, but not necessarily for other models.

Alfisti · 05-19-2010, 10:29 AM

No I have the 20D so a tad confused.

I'm fiddling with pre-sets right now and decided that even though I LOATHE the violet shift in the blues, ACR 4.4 just goes too far towards green.

So i am settling on Camera Standard and dialing in -5 on the blue hue. ACR 4.4 also blocks up the shadows really badly.

Adobe Standard is awful on all fronts.

arpaagent · 05-19-2010, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Alfisti

No I have the 20D so a tad confused.

I'm fiddling with pre-sets right now and decided that even though I LOATHE the violet shift in the blues, ACR 4.4 just goes too far towards green.

So i am settling on Camera Standard and dialing in -5 on the blue hue. ACR 4.4 also blocks up the shadows really badly.

Adobe Standard is awful on all fronts.

K20D does not have an embedded profile as far as I know. I think they started doing that w/ the K-7, and it only works when shooting in DNG format. PEF format does not support the embedded profile. At least that's the conclusion that I have come to after using K-7 for a year.

Eruditass · 05-19-2010, 03:13 PM

This is why I switched from PEF to DNG.

Lucky Sky · 05-23-2010, 08:16 PM

Jim-
I use the DNG format. The K20D certainly has an "embedded" camera profile available in the Camera Calibration module of LR v2x (if shooting in DNG). I neglected to mention that over a year ago, I switched from PEF to DNG to take advantage of that embedded profile and haven't looked back. It was so long ago, that I don't even think about PEF/DNG format anymore. I find the IQ now in LR to equal Pentax's Silkypix engine.

Alfisti · 05-24-2010, 07:29 AM

Just to clarify, does the imbedded profile simply cover the way the camera handles colour or does it also present the image as per the camera settings like saturation/contrast etc etc?

Lucky Sky · 05-25-2010, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Alfisti

Just to clarify, does the imbedded profile simply cover the way the camera handles colour or does it also present the image as per the camera settings like saturation/contrast etc etc?

The embedded profile delivers the JPG in camera custom settings as set by the photographer.

I'll say it again- by using the K20D DNG file format, plus the LR 2.3 thru 2.7 embedded camera profile, I get as good results (or better) as I did when using the Pentax supplied software.

That embedded camera profile is what makes LR such a delight to use.

And......all due credit goes to Modest Mouse over at that other place for putting this info out last year. I'm merely repeating it.

Alfisti · 05-26-2010, 07:01 AM

SO best of both world's then? That's outstanding.

How does it display in Lightroom though? As in are the develop sliders altered to show the processing that has taken place?

Lucky Sky · 05-26-2010, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Alfisti

SO best of both world's then? That's outstanding.

How does it display in Lightroom though? As in are the develop sliders altered to show the processing that has taken place?

No, the sliders are at the LR default values.

05-12-2010, 05:21 AM	#1
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	LR : Embedded vs Adobe Default vs Camera Standard I only recently discovered this after nearly a year of shooting raw I noticed that after taking sunrise photos on Mt Sinai where my in-camera previews were very vibrant replicating the scenes that I actually saw and act. However when imported into LR the colours were at first bright and vivid until the rendering completed where it turned dull and lifeless, throughout all my photos my bright vibrant yellows and oranges turned dull and I was very annoyed. However I then played with the calibration profiles where I set it to camera standard and it seemed to replicate the images as I shot them, however I do find camera standard can look fantastic with some photos and a tad too colourful with others. My question is what does everyone else use and what is the difference between Embedded and the rest?

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05-12-2010, 06:44 AM	#2
arpaagent Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	I generally use the embedded profile when processing my K-7 shots. If the images come out too unsaturated in LR, then I will just bump up the saturation/vibrance sliders to about 10 or so to bring back the color that I wanted. Some scenes also require a little extra contrast to bring out the colors in the photo. Also, if you have your camera set to the "Bright" photo option, all your previews will be brighter and more saturated than what the default is in LR. The embedded DNG profile does not take that setting into account, so that may be a culprit here as well.

05-12-2010, 07:16 AM	#3
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689 Original Poster	When you say embedded that does refer to the Natural, Bright, Landscape, Muted , etc settings on the camera?

05-12-2010, 09:03 AM	#4
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by C.W Tsorotes When you say embedded that does refer to the Natural, Bright, Landscape, Muted , etc settings on the camera? My guess is that the initial bright display you see is the jpeg preview which displays until LR renders the image from the raw file itself. Try shooting some pics with the camera set to natural and see if, when opened in LR, there isn't less difference between the initial display and the fully rendered view.

05-17-2010, 08:48 PM	#5
Lucky Sky Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lone Tree, Colorado, USA Posts: 77	Originally posted by C.W Tsorotes When you say embedded that does refer to the Natural, Bright, Landscape, Muted , etc settings on the camera? No, you need to go to the tab in LR on the right side (below detail as I recall) named Camera Calibration. In there, you'll find some profiles to choose. Embedded will be there. I've been using it (embedded) for about a year with my K20D. I'm 100% satisfied. I've made a preset using that embedded profile plus some other items to get the development process underway while importing the images from the SD card.

05-19-2010, 09:20 AM	#6
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	I'm not getting that. I get the following .... ACR 4.4 Adobe Standard Adobe Standard 2 beta Camera Standard Camera Standard 2 beta I generally prefer Camera Standard but ACR 4.4 does a far better job with blues. Camera standard shifts purple whereas ACR 4.4 has more cyan so skies and water looks that real sky blue rather than purply blue for want of a better word. Pain in the arse though TBH.

05-19-2010, 09:54 AM	#7
Lucky Sky Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lone Tree, Colorado, USA Posts: 77	Originally posted by Alfisti I'm not getting that. I get the following .... ACR 4.4 Adobe Standard Adobe Standard 2 beta Camera Standard Camera Standard 2 beta I generally prefer Camera Standard but ACR 4.4 does a far better job with blues. Camera standard shifts purple whereas ACR 4.4 has more cyan so skies and water looks that real sky blue rather than purply blue for want of a better word. Pain in the arse though TBH. If you're using the K-7, that might explain why. Modest Mouse (on the other forum) can explain why better than I , but for some reason the camera generated embedded JPEG is available for a K20D Camera Profile, but not necessarily for other models.

05-19-2010, 10:29 AM	#8
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	No I have the 20D so a tad confused. I'm fiddling with pre-sets right now and decided that even though I LOATHE the violet shift in the blues, ACR 4.4 just goes too far towards green. So i am settling on Camera Standard and dialing in -5 on the blue hue. ACR 4.4 also blocks up the shadows really badly. Adobe Standard is awful on all fronts.

05-19-2010, 10:55 AM	#9
arpaagent Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	Originally posted by Alfisti No I have the 20D so a tad confused. I'm fiddling with pre-sets right now and decided that even though I LOATHE the violet shift in the blues, ACR 4.4 just goes too far towards green. So i am settling on Camera Standard and dialing in -5 on the blue hue. ACR 4.4 also blocks up the shadows really badly. Adobe Standard is awful on all fronts. K20D does not have an embedded profile as far as I know. I think they started doing that w/ the K-7, and it only works when shooting in DNG format. PEF format does not support the embedded profile. At least that's the conclusion that I have come to after using K-7 for a year.

05-19-2010, 03:13 PM	#10
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	This is why I switched from PEF to DNG.

05-23-2010, 08:16 PM	#11
Lucky Sky Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lone Tree, Colorado, USA Posts: 77	Jim- I use the DNG format. The K20D certainly has an "embedded" camera profile available in the Camera Calibration module of LR v2x (if shooting in DNG). I neglected to mention that over a year ago, I switched from PEF to DNG to take advantage of that embedded profile and haven't looked back. It was so long ago, that I don't even think about PEF/DNG format anymore. I find the IQ now in LR to equal Pentax's Silkypix engine.

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05-24-2010, 07:29 AM	#12
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	Just to clarify, does the imbedded profile simply cover the way the camera handles colour or does it also present the image as per the camera settings like saturation/contrast etc etc?

05-25-2010, 03:40 PM	#13
Lucky Sky Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lone Tree, Colorado, USA Posts: 77	Originally posted by Alfisti Just to clarify, does the imbedded profile simply cover the way the camera handles colour or does it also present the image as per the camera settings like saturation/contrast etc etc? The embedded profile delivers the JPG in camera custom settings as set by the photographer. I'll say it again- by using the K20D DNG file format, plus the LR 2.3 thru 2.7 embedded camera profile, I get as good results (or better) as I did when using the Pentax supplied software. That embedded camera profile is what makes LR such a delight to use. And......all due credit goes to Modest Mouse over at that other place for putting this info out last year. I'm merely repeating it.

05-26-2010, 07:01 AM	#14
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	SO best of both world's then? That's outstanding. How does it display in Lightroom though? As in are the develop sliders altered to show the processing that has taken place?

05-26-2010, 09:02 PM	#15
Lucky Sky Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lone Tree, Colorado, USA Posts: 77	Originally posted by Alfisti SO best of both world's then? That's outstanding. How does it display in Lightroom though? As in are the develop sliders altered to show the processing that has taken place? No, the sliders are at the LR default values.