if you've tried all the rest, would you say Lightroom is the best?

**Mallee Boy** · 09-17-2007, 04:21 PM

Hi m80,
I originally had RSE (Raw Shooter Essentials Premium) which was bought out by Adobe. RSE was a great and easy program to use (fortuneatley I still have it), and Adobe gave me a beta version of Lightroom.
Initially I was overwhelmed by it...(hey, I'm older, change is not something I embrace with unbridled joy

)...too much to learn by remote control. ( I learn better by being instructed one on one...by a person)
Initially it was very 'buggy', often freezing, occassionally crashing. However I perservered and am now coming to like it.
I have only just downloaded the upgrade this week and already the program seems to be running a bit quicker and 'smoother'.
One big plus in its favour is that you can work with both RAW and JPEG from the one screen and file.
If you are looking "simple & easy" Lightroom is probably not for you, conversely, if you are prepared to put in some effort you WILL get a lot out of Lightroom.
I will be interested to hear how you get on.
Grant

Ole · 09-17-2007, 07:01 PM

I bought it and sent it back for a refund. I can't live without Photoshop's layers, and having to go back and forth all the time between lightroom and photoshop made no sense to me.

SWEngineer · 09-18-2007, 08:15 PM

I was thinking of starting a thread on LR, but this looks like one's already going...

I started doing raw conversions in earnest in RSE on my laptop and final work in Elements 2.0. When RSP came out, I upgraded right away, in part to support a great, free app (RSE). But I out grew PSE2 and bought CS2/ACR as an upgrade. This allowed by to do raw on my Mac instead of the laptop (RSE / RSP being Windows only). CS2/ACR has been my primary work enviroment for some time now. I'm quite comfortable with it and generally feel it's very good. It's not perfect, however.

As an early adopter of RSP, I got LR 1.0 (NOT beta) free from Adobe (Mac version). [Kudos to Adobe for doing that. I didn't believe it when word of this plan first popped up. I hated seeing the demise of RSE/RSP which really, is still sad. RSE was, IMO, a great intro to RAW process & unbeatable for the price - free.] But I never bothered to spend any time learning LR 1.0 (or 1.1 or the public Beta). Well, this past weekend, I downloaded the 1.2 update & made a serious effort to learn it. Admittedly, I'm still a neophyte, but here's my take on it (LR 1.2) compared to RSP & Bridge/ACR (CS2 based - CS3 versions may close a lot of the gaps):

Library module - For now, call it a draw compared to Bridge. Nested keywording is nice. But the keyword workflow I have found very non-intuitive. This was probably the hardest feature for me to figure out. I'm sure I'm still not using it very efficiently. I haven't used it yet, but the 'off line' Collections(?) ability will help me. RSP has nothing (really) to compare with. The Bridge ability to run Photoshop batch scripts on selected RAW files maybe gives the edge to CS2/Bridge. Perhaps LR has this capability & I just haven't discovered it yet.

Develop module - Much better than ACR with a few downsides. Better results than RSP but not as intuitive.

Pluses: Dedicated highlight recovery slider. Fill Light slider - a much improved implementation of a very cool RSE/RSP feature. (It could be that the lower quality output of my laptop display compared to my iMac accounts for some the difference. FillLight adjustment in RSE/RSP often made very "muddy", unpleasant looking images in my mind. LR doesn't seem to have this problem. ) ACR has nothing. Clarity slider (local contrast enhancement) - perhaps my favorite feature at this point. Nothing like it in RSP or ACR. Vibrance slider - also inherited from RSP and seems to work equivalently. Nice feature missing from ACR. The HSL/Color/Grayscale sub-module provides local adjustment capability (image dependant). Just the extra refined adjustment it allows makes it helpful. Nothing close in RSP or ACR. Same for the last two items: Split Toning - I've only played with it a bit, but it seems promising in special situations. Remove Spots tool - it seems to work ok.

Minuses: Tone curve. The dumbed down interface maybe helps for simple adjustments. But I miss the power and flexibility of a real point based Curves interface. Almost a deal breaker here. Creating a TIFF to load in PS CS2 for final editing. This probably creates the biggest deviation from my comfortable ACR/CS2 workflow. I hope I can figure out how to get these TIFF files created where I choose instead of my current working directory (full of raw files). It would also be nice if they weren't added by default to the LR database.

Other modules (Slideshow / Print / Web). I haven't played with these and probably won't use them much except Slideshow.

In short, LR provides a raw processing environment that comes close to enabling a finished "print". That means fewer images needing final refinement in CS2. How many fewer isn't clear yet. And I'm probably too much of a (very imperfect) perfectionist, so maybe I'll still final tweak eveything in CS2.

For the near term, I'm planning to stick with LR and see how I get along with the workflow changes (esp. keywording & output to CS2). Long term, it might be tough. I'd like to upgrade to CS3 or maybe wait for CS4

Then the (I assume) improved Bridge & ACR might negate the expense of upgrading LR. (I expect version 2.0 will fix the Curves issue and have nifty new features as well.)

Finally in reply to Ole:

Quote:

I bought it and sent it back for a refund. I can't live without Photoshop's layers, and having to go back and forth all the time between lightroom and photoshop made no sense to me.

Huh??? LR (to me) isn't a replacement for PS but is for Bridge / ACR - neither of which has layers either

And what's this about going back & forth? For me, it's: RAW file --> LR --> TIFF (sadly) --> PS CS2 --> PSD (save as master file) --> JPG (or whatever for final output). I guess then it's back to LR to delete the TIFF.

I expect (hope) there's a way around this. Or I may have to revise my workflow to accomodate this LR quirk.

Sorry for the long post. I'm very impressed with LR and interested in comparing note with my forum friends.

Regards.

-Mark

Matjazz · 09-19-2007, 05:56 AM

I've tried RSE, Lightroom, Capture One and SilkyPix which is my raw converter of choice. I like smooth and intuitive operation in Lightroom but compared to SilkyPix the end result is missing color intesitiy of small areas (5x5pix or less). In practice this means that sewed logo letters on jacket will be light brown instead of yellow as they should be. This is where SilkyPix shines compared to others thou Lightroom is second best in this regard. I guess high color separation that SilkyPix advertises actually means something.
Lightroom would probably be my second choice.

phoreal · 09-19-2007, 07:18 AM

Yeah, I just downloaded silkypix, but does it support Pentax's PEF?

Matjazz · 09-19-2007, 11:30 AM

I can confirm that it supports K100D, K10D and *Ist DS and I'm prettty sure it supports the rest of them.

09-18-2007, 08:15 PM	#18
SWEngineer Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Albuquerque, NM Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 308	might as well add my 2c I was thinking of starting a thread on LR, but this looks like one's already going... I started doing raw conversions in earnest in RSE on my laptop and final work in Elements 2.0. When RSP came out, I upgraded right away, in part to support a great, free app (RSE). But I out grew PSE2 and bought CS2/ACR as an upgrade. This allowed by to do raw on my Mac instead of the laptop (RSE / RSP being Windows only). CS2/ACR has been my primary work enviroment for some time now. I'm quite comfortable with it and generally feel it's very good. It's not perfect, however. As an early adopter of RSP, I got LR 1.0 (NOT beta) free from Adobe (Mac version). [Kudos to Adobe for doing that. I didn't believe it when word of this plan first popped up. I hated seeing the demise of RSE/RSP which really, is still sad. RSE was, IMO, a great intro to RAW process & unbeatable for the price - free.] But I never bothered to spend any time learning LR 1.0 (or 1.1 or the public Beta). Well, this past weekend, I downloaded the 1.2 update & made a serious effort to learn it. Admittedly, I'm still a neophyte, but here's my take on it (LR 1.2) compared to RSP & Bridge/ACR (CS2 based - CS3 versions may close a lot of the gaps): Library module - For now, call it a draw compared to Bridge. Nested keywording is nice. But the keyword workflow I have found very non-intuitive. This was probably the hardest feature for me to figure out. I'm sure I'm still not using it very efficiently. I haven't used it yet, but the 'off line' Collections(?) ability will help me. RSP has nothing (really) to compare with. The Bridge ability to run Photoshop batch scripts on selected RAW files maybe gives the edge to CS2/Bridge. Perhaps LR has this capability & I just haven't discovered it yet. Develop module - Much better than ACR with a few downsides. Better results than RSP but not as intuitive. Pluses: Dedicated highlight recovery slider. Fill Light slider - a much improved implementation of a very cool RSE/RSP feature. (It could be that the lower quality output of my laptop display compared to my iMac accounts for some the difference. FillLight adjustment in RSE/RSP often made very "muddy", unpleasant looking images in my mind. LR doesn't seem to have this problem. ) ACR has nothing. Clarity slider (local contrast enhancement) - perhaps my favorite feature at this point. Nothing like it in RSP or ACR. Vibrance slider - also inherited from RSP and seems to work equivalently. Nice feature missing from ACR. The HSL/Color/Grayscale sub-module provides local adjustment capability (image dependant). Just the extra refined adjustment it allows makes it helpful. Nothing close in RSP or ACR. Same for the last two items: Split Toning - I've only played with it a bit, but it seems promising in special situations. Remove Spots tool - it seems to work ok. Minuses: Tone curve. The dumbed down interface maybe helps for simple adjustments. But I miss the power and flexibility of a real point based Curves interface. Almost a deal breaker here. Creating a TIFF to load in PS CS2 for final editing. This probably creates the biggest deviation from my comfortable ACR/CS2 workflow. I hope I can figure out how to get these TIFF files created where I choose instead of my current working directory (full of raw files). It would also be nice if they weren't added by default to the LR database. Other modules (Slideshow / Print / Web). I haven't played with these and probably won't use them much except Slideshow. In short, LR provides a raw processing environment that comes close to enabling a finished "print". That means fewer images needing final refinement in CS2. How many fewer isn't clear yet. And I'm probably too much of a (very imperfect) perfectionist, so maybe I'll still final tweak eveything in CS2. For the near term, I'm planning to stick with LR and see how I get along with the workflow changes (esp. keywording & output to CS2). Long term, it might be tough. I'd like to upgrade to CS3 or maybe wait for CS4 Then the (I assume) improved Bridge & ACR might negate the expense of upgrading LR. (I expect version 2.0 will fix the Curves issue and have nifty new features as well.) Finally in reply to Ole: Quote: I bought it and sent it back for a refund. I can't live without Photoshop's layers, and having to go back and forth all the time between lightroom and photoshop made no sense to me. Huh??? LR (to me) isn't a replacement for PS but is for Bridge / ACR - neither of which has layers either And what's this about going back & forth? For me, it's: RAW file --> LR --> TIFF (sadly) --> PS CS2 --> PSD (save as master file) --> JPG (or whatever for final output). I guess then it's back to LR to delete the TIFF. I expect (hope) there's a way around this. Or I may have to revise my workflow to accomodate this LR quirk. Sorry for the long post. I'm very impressed with LR and interested in comparing note with my forum friends. Regards. -Mark

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09-17-2007, 04:21 PM	#16
Mallee Boy Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,904	Hi m80, I originally had RSE (Raw Shooter Essentials Premium) which was bought out by Adobe. RSE was a great and easy program to use (fortuneatley I still have it), and Adobe gave me a beta version of Lightroom. Initially I was overwhelmed by it...(hey, I'm older, change is not something I embrace with unbridled joy )...too much to learn by remote control. ( I learn better by being instructed one on one...by a person) Initially it was very 'buggy', often freezing, occassionally crashing. However I perservered and am now coming to like it. I have only just downloaded the upgrade this week and already the program seems to be running a bit quicker and 'smoother'. One big plus in its favour is that you can work with both RAW and JPEG from the one screen and file. If you are looking "simple & easy" Lightroom is probably not for you, conversely, if you are prepared to put in some effort you WILL get a lot out of Lightroom. I will be interested to hear how you get on. Grant

09-17-2007, 07:01 PM	#17
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	I bought it and sent it back for a refund. I can't live without Photoshop's layers, and having to go back and forth all the time between lightroom and photoshop made no sense to me.

09-19-2007, 05:56 AM	#19
Matjazz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: EU/Slovenia Photos: Gallery Posts: 774	I've tried RSE, Lightroom, Capture One and SilkyPix which is my raw converter of choice. I like smooth and intuitive operation in Lightroom but compared to SilkyPix the end result is missing color intesitiy of small areas (5x5pix or less). In practice this means that sewed logo letters on jacket will be light brown instead of yellow as they should be. This is where SilkyPix shines compared to others thou Lightroom is second best in this regard. I guess high color separation that SilkyPix advertises actually means something. Lightroom would probably be my second choice.

09-19-2007, 07:18 AM	#20
phoreal New Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Chisinau Photos: Gallery Posts: 11	Yeah, I just downloaded silkypix, but does it support Pentax's PEF?

09-19-2007, 11:30 AM	#21
Matjazz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: EU/Slovenia Photos: Gallery Posts: 774	I can confirm that it supports K100D, K10D and *Ist DS and I'm prettty sure it supports the rest of them.