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11-15-2010, 07:40 AM   #1
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Using LR3 with Elements 6

I received a copy of Elements 6.0 with my printer, so I thought I would start using it with LR. From anything that I've read, it's easy to do, but it doesn't seem to work as well as I'm expecting. Perhaps it's just something I'm doing wrong, or I've just got something set up wrong, so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. When I select the picture in LR, and I select "Edit In", and I select "Elements 6.0", I get this window popping up.



Anything I read, it should go right into Elements. After I do my work in Elements, I select "Save", and it should bring me right back into LR, but instead Elements brings up the "Save As" window, and I get stuck at this point. This brings up a couple of questions.

1. What am I doing wrong? (The obvious question)
2. The window that pops up going from LR to Elements, does it matter what options I use in here, or once I get it working properly, will that window not even come up? Also notice in the window "Edit a copy" & "Edit Original" are grayed out.

11-15-2010, 09:59 AM   #2
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That is the normal option window when you transfer an image from LR to Elements, I have Elements 7 and always get it as well.

File Format: PSD. I always use TIF. I'm not sure but i don't think LR will store a PSD. jpeg also works.

Color Space: ProPhoto. If you're going to print online or show pics on website, i think you're better off with sRGB.

Bit depth 16 bit. I use 16 bit as well and some plugins will work with that. On many edit operations within Elements, you will find that you will not be able to carry them out till you go to Image and convert your file to 8 bit.

Enjoy, you are on the right track.
11-15-2010, 10:37 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
That is the normal option window when you transfer an image from LR to Elements, I have Elements 7 and always get it as well.

File Format: PSD. I always use TIF. I'm not sure but i don't think LR will store a PSD. jpeg also works.

Color Space: ProPhoto. If you're going to print online or show pics on website, i think you're better off with sRGB.

Bit depth 16 bit. I use 16 bit as well and some plugins will work with that. On many edit operations within Elements, you will find that you will not be able to carry them out till you go to Image and convert your file to 8 bit.

Enjoy, you are on the right track.
Maybe using the PSD is why I can't bring it back into LR. I'll test and see what happens. Thanks for the tips.
11-15-2010, 11:51 AM   #4
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Lightroom imports and reads PSD file data just fine. I have two guesses about your problem:

1. You didn't enable stacking. Also did you initiate PSE from within a folder or a collection? I believe there may be a requirement for the action to initiate from within a folder.

2. PSE 6 is a little too old to incorporate the interactive scripting routines with LR to effect a smooth round-trip.


It's smarter to maintain the ProPhoto color space in both applications because it has a wider gamut than anything. Why develop an image in a lesser-gamut color space? The inherent design approach of LR is to maintain the highest possible quality to work in, with one-offs tailorable to your needs. Thus it's easier to export an sRGB version when needed for web or photolab output.

With older versions of LR I would delete the sRGB version after posting to the web or printer. Now with publish services to Smugmug (my host service) the physical file can totally bypass my hard drive.

M

11-16-2010, 10:22 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
.....It's smarter to maintain the ProPhoto color space in both applications because it has a wider gamut than anything. Why develop an image in a lesser-gamut color space? The inherent design approach of LR is to maintain the highest possible quality to work in, with one-offs tailorable to your needs. Thus it's easier to export an sRGB version when needed for web or photolab output.

With older versions of LR I would delete the sRGB version after posting to the web or printer. Now with publish services to Smugmug (my host service) the physical file can totally bypass my hard drive.

M
I'm not sure about the Prophoto answer. If eccs19 is going to print out using a prophoto printer, then that would seem to make sense.

But if eccs is not going to make use of the wider gamut, then i'm not convinced that it makes sense to work in a color environment that one is not going to use. One is also assuming the prophoto to sRGB converter is going to produce a product that meets one's requirements.

The thing i love about sRGB, is that what i see on my screen, matches the test prints i get from a local online printing store and those match the sRGB output from a canvas printing factory I use that is 3000 miles away. so cool.

Miguel, i dont' pretend to be any kind of color space expert, but when i tried prophoto on my computer, i had way more problems. But your mileage obviously differs :-)

Last edited by philbaum; 11-16-2010 at 10:33 AM.
11-16-2010, 11:55 AM   #6
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QuoteQuote:
when i tried prophoto on my computer, i had way more problems
I would need more context around this to identify the specific problems, but do realize that you are working in ProPhoto RBG if you are working on new RAW or DNG files in Lightroom. It imports/exports files in other color spaces, but your nuts-and-bolts image processing is in that environment.

QuoteQuote:
If eccs19 is going to print out using a prophoto printer, then that would seem to make sense
There is no Prophoto RGB printer anywhere. The color gamut is too wide for both monitors and printers to fully reproduce. The color space is theoretical to some extent.


But it's most useful as a development platform because with a superb monitor you get the most colors, and it's a way of future proofing your images for when technology can better accommodate the color space. Having a calibrated IPS monitor helps.

Lightroom automatically manages the transition from ProPhoto RGB to your connected printers. For outsourced printing, like your canvas shop, a simple sRGB file export works just fine as you know.

It doesn't make sense to short shrift your image development environment to a less rich color space when it is so easy to export an image file in sRBG or aRGB for outside printing labs or web output.

QuoteQuote:
The thing i love about sRGB, is that what i see on my screen, matches the test prints i get from a local online printing store and those match the sRGB output from a canvas printing factory I use that is 3000 miles away. so cool.
That tells me you either have a nicely color managed workflow or you're just lucky
In the case of the former, the color space choice should not matter, especially if you soft proof. Unfortunately Lightroom doesn't offer soft proofing (Adobe should have fixed this by now).

M
11-17-2010, 11:26 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
I would need more context around this to identify the specific problems, but do realize that you are working in ProPhoto RBG if you are working on new RAW or DNG files in Lightroom. It imports/exports files in other color spaces, but your nuts-and-bolts image processing is in that environment.

There is no Prophoto RGB printer anywhere. The color gamut is too wide for both monitors and printers to fully reproduce. The color space is theoretical to some extent.

But it's most useful as a development platform because with a superb monitor you get the most colors, and it's a way of future proofing your images for when technology can better accommodate the color space. Having a calibrated IPS monitor helps.

It doesn't make sense to short shrift your image development environment to a less rich color space when it is so easy to export an image file in sRBG or aRGB for outside printing labs or web output.

That tells me you either have a nicely color managed workflow or you're just lucky
In the case of the former, the color space choice should not matter, especially if you soft proof. Unfortunately Lightroom doesn't offer soft proofing (Adobe should have fixed this by now).

M
Actually, Lightroom processes in Melissa RGB, which is a version of Prophoto, but with the sRGB toning curve and gamma setting.

I don't use Photoshop, but instead, Photoshot Elements. Does it still make sense to export using Prophoto if one is using Elements vice the full Photoshop? In my previous use of Elements, by using an sRBG TIFF, I have never noticed a difference in colors after reimporting the processed image back into Lightroom.
11-17-2010, 12:06 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote

[deleted]

I don't use Photoshop, but instead, Photoshot Elements. Does it still make sense to export using Prophoto if one is using Elements vice the full Photoshop? In my previous use of Elements, by using an sRBG TIFF, I have never noticed a difference in colors after reimporting the processed image back into Lightroom.
Phil, I'm a little confused about your workflow. I assume that your starting point here is a RAW or DNG file out of your Pentax that is imported into Lightroom and then kicked to PSE for a roundtrip?

I'd still send it to PSE in ProPhoto as a 16-bit TIFF or PSD. Then in Lightroom export that version as an sRGB jpeg to a commercial printer.

Whether you notice color differences or not is dependent on so many variables: how accurate your monitor is, the angle of tilt of the monitor towards your eyes, whether it is profiled after a hardware calibration process, and room lighting.

It also matters (on older Windows machines especially) if you have color management enabled on the OS level. It also depends on the color gamut of the image--most of the perceivable colors could be falling within the sRGB space. Or maybe you are not super sensitive to color changes (this is not intended as a snide comment, our brains are weirdly wired: my sense of smell is just lousy).

PSE vs. Photoshop shouldn't matter all that much, though soft proofing (which PSE lacks, correct?) allows you to see the impacts of some color differences on screen for printing.

M

11-18-2010, 11:34 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
Phil, I'm a little confused about your workflow. I assume that your starting point here is a RAW or DNG file out of your Pentax that is imported into Lightroom and then kicked to PSE for a roundtrip?

I'd still send it to PSE in ProPhoto as a 16-bit TIFF or PSD. Then in Lightroom export that version as an sRGB jpeg to a commercial printer.

It also matters (on older Windows machines especially) if you have color management enabled on the OS level. It also depends on the color gamut of the image--most of the perceivable colors could be falling within the sRGB space. Or maybe you are not super sensitive to color changes (this is not intended as a snide comment, our brains are weirdly wired: my sense of smell is just lousy).

PSE vs. Photoshop shouldn't matter all that much, though soft proofing (which PSE lacks, correct?) allows you to see the impacts of some color differences on screen for printing.

M
Miguel,
Your first sentence describes my workflow, RAW to LR, less than 10% go onto PSE and then return to LR. All export for display is from LR.

BTW, did you know that there is a third party soft proof plugin for LR:

Lightroom Plugins - Soft Proofing for Lightroom

Do you think this product is any good? I installed it and it seems to work fine.

thanks, Phil
11-18-2010, 12:45 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote

[deleted]

BTW, did you know that there is a third party soft proof plugin for LR:

Lightroom Plugins - Soft Proofing for Lightroom

Do you think this product is any good? I installed it and it seems to work fine.

thanks, Phil
Nice concept, but there seems to be early issues. I'll wait for a while. It's easy for me to kick into Photoshop to soft-proof. Fortunately I don't have to do that much as printing out of LR for me is accurate and easy.

M
11-18-2010, 05:01 PM   #11
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Clue us into your Canvas Printing Facility, PLEASE!
11-18-2010, 05:45 PM   #12
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Thanks for all the info. I kind of got things to work. I can get it from LR into Elements, but once in Elements, it won't let me create layers (grayed out), and if I try to do some functions it wants me to convert the picture to 8 bit. After I do that, I can then add layers, etc., so I'm not sure why it's doing that. It still wants me to do a "save as", but once I do that, it does come back into LR. So sort of working, I just don't think it's working as it should.
11-18-2010, 06:04 PM   #13
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Well a lot of filters and probably other functions on that older version are still coded for 8-bit files. Photoshop (non-PSE) has the same issues.
So, I think it is working as it should.
Congratulations!

M
11-18-2010, 06:19 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by chefpete1 Quote
Clue us into your Canvas Printing Facility, PLEASE!
I've printed canvas copies from these 2 firms:

https://finerworks.com/pricing.asp (Texas)

The Giclee Factory - About (Quebec)

I suggest you have these companies put a sealer coat on canvas, after the Giclee print. Since there is no protective glass or Acrylic layer to protect the print, the sealer coat is essential for protection from spills and for later cleaning from dust.

I would do a "test" print" usually at 8x12 size at the local Costco, before sending the image to either of these 2 firms. The color space was specified as sRGB. Then i printed at 16x24 or 20x30 sizes for various images. I was amazed to find that an identical canvas print at 20x30 from either of these two firms looked exactly in toning and color to the test print from Costco. (sRGB works :-))

Best wishes,
11-18-2010, 11:39 PM   #15
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Thanks a million!
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