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11-12-2007, 08:06 AM   #1
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Macs and PP Popularity...

Curious if someone cares to really explain the reasoning why macs have always seemed to be so much more popular with the photographer crowd?

Admittedly I am new to the mac scene, having bought my macbook a couple months back, so I still have a steep windows bias, or at least, familiarity with one interface versus the other, to overcome. But I've noticed in virtually every magazine I've picked up, the PP software is predominantly running on macs, and a lot of articles I've read mention this as well.

Just curious if there's a really good reason? I havent used photoshop on the mac yet-was going to get photoshop elements or possibly lightroom....last time I ran photoshop on my PC was a couple years back, and mostly used it for premiere elements, not PSE.

Reason I ask, or at least, one reason I ask, is I was doing PP of my first images off of my k10d a couple nights back in iPhoto, and I wanted to right click (or control-click) to save as (as I would be able to do in the windows world)--so as not to overwrite the original RAW file. But unless I was confused or just over-tired, I did not see the option.
Wondering if my best bet is to copy the actual file folder and rename that, then begin PP work. Might streamline things.

But, it just got me curious how macs sorta got linked to the artistic/creative folks....

11-12-2007, 09:22 AM   #2
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Architecture!

In the beginning much of the Mac environment was coded and burnt to hardware; in effect everybody used the same highly debugged and optimized routines for making all things MAC. In this was a closed system-for peripherals to work with MAC they must be designed for MAC; there was one CPU, one motherboard, one graphics engine.

Windows, on the other hand was cobbled first on top of DOS then on each preceding generation of OS. And peripherals were a hodge-podge like the varied hardware from CPU and motherboards on up.

Mac is inherently stable and log running, Windows has from time to time been a crap-shoot.

When time is money you go with what works.



QuoteOriginally posted by jmdeegan Quote
Curious if someone cares to really explain the reasoning why macs have always seemed to be so much more popular with the photographer crowd?

Admittedly I am new to the mac scene, having bought my macbook a couple months back, so I still have a steep windows bias, or at least, familiarity with one interface versus the other, to overcome. But I've noticed in virtually every magazine I've picked up, the PP software is predominantly running on macs, and a lot of articles I've read mention this as well.

Just curious if there's a really good reason? I havent used photoshop on the mac yet-was going to get photoshop elements or possibly lightroom....last time I ran photoshop on my PC was a couple years back, and mostly used it for premiere elements, not PSE.

Reason I ask, or at least, one reason I ask, is I was doing PP of my first images off of my k10d a couple nights back in iPhoto, and I wanted to right click (or control-click) to save as (as I would be able to do in the windows world)--so as not to overwrite the original RAW file. But unless I was confused or just over-tired, I did not see the option.
Wondering if my best bet is to copy the actual file folder and rename that, then begin PP work. Might streamline things.

But, it just got me curious how macs sorta got linked to the artistic/creative folks....
11-12-2007, 09:29 AM   #3
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makes sense, I kinda thought it was something like that.

I like my macbook thus far, but I think for what I want to do with it, Ill be wishing i had the iMac or better still the mac pro. Except, I travel a lot, and when I am home I don't have a dedicated desk (temporary). so right now, a laptop makes the most sense for me.

thx
11-12-2007, 12:06 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Architecture!
Mac is inherently stable and log running, Windows has from time to time been a crap-shoot.

When time is money you go with what works.
Oh, that's a hoot. Even with OS X, at least until all the various developers update their software, and cheap bosses buy the upgrades, OS X can STILL be a staibility nightmare in a busy production environment. OS 9 was an absolute nightmare in that regard.

Macs have a lot of popularity in the various design fields mainly because they got there first by a fair ammount. These days, on the technical side, about the only thing the OS really has going for it from a design/photography standpoint is better integration of color management.

As apple has moved towards having broad appeal, what few ACTUAL advantages it has had are going away. Some becuase they were a good idea and they have become common, some because the platofrm is becoming more popular and supported by 3rd parties, but not necessarily well.

But historically, things Macs did that made them desirable in the general field of visual design stuff. Many of these things make the difference between dropping your $3k on something that helps you get more work done, or something that just makes for more work.

1) did photo/design stuff at all.
2) reduced choice. If there are only two varieties of product, both tested with the 6 varieties of computetr, you don't think about it having to work, and a photogrpaher/designers business is NOT running a computer network.
3) Removable storage with a nice fat pipe. External firewire drives were worth their weight in gold long before external USB 2.0 drives were everywhere.
4) Early adoption of optical media. This has been good for making simple no-brainer backups possible without having to think about it.
5) Well configured, well tested hardware at a price point that was relatively competitive. (now that you can build a $700 PC that is more than adequate for design or photo-editing needs, but for quite some time, for the job you could drop $2500 on a PC, or $2895 on a MAC)

Although Macs might have been stable compared to a windows 95 box, it really ins't the case any more. Both Windows XP (or evne vista) and OS X have gotten MUCH more stable than in the past, and both are well past the stability interval required by professional designers/photographers.

11-12-2007, 08:03 PM   #5
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cribbed together above comments hint at an answer to your question.

In the early to mid 1980's Apple had a strong marketing initiative in education and met with success in the design departments of colleges and universities. Partly because of previous comments on architecture, but more due to fundamental change to how visual design was executed coupled with what became Apple's byline: ease of use, which of course is paramount in a learning environment.

Concurrently, IBM attemped educational introduction of the PC, but most of the programs (well, the ones I saw, tried and gave up on) were IBM products as well. Not easy to learn!

In marketing history, Apple's push to introduce new technologies and processes in the colleges and universities was brilliant. It succeeded because they got the right package, hardware and software, and although in the visual design field there is no difference now between platforms' performance, Apple's legacy is pervasive, helped by continuing the same marketing practice, long since abandoned by IBM.
11-13-2007, 07:22 AM   #6
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Do you think most of the people posting here are using Apple computers?
11-13-2007, 07:33 AM   #7
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Did not make that assumption-this was more based upon reading the more prevalent photo mags, where almost every shot of PP or computer-based activity was of a mac.

Then again, they did show a desire to be more bleeding edge by making the mistake of upgrading this soon to vista, so I was taking it all with a grain of salt.

I personally have both mac and PC. Been essentially a PC-only guy for my entire life, until I got a macbook in August. I like it, but I am not so sure I am one of the advertised converts that ditches all thing PC and just becomes a mac fanboy. I like the ability to buy my own hardware (even though the prices of dells and such make it an excercise less about cost-savings, and more about the enjoyment of the build). But I am so used to the processes and ways of doing things on a PC (right clicking, for example-which can sorta be done on the macbook, and can be "programmed" on mice), that it just makes it hard for me to go whole-hog.

there is also the fact that I can't see my wife completely embracing it. IE, she's used the mac a couple times, but only to check her email.
I did like the fact that importing footage from my 7 year old sony camcorder took markedly less time on a lower end macbook as compared to my AMD 64Bit dual core processor machine, with a true video card and 4 times the RAM (iMovie for the mac, used Premiere elements for the PC experience). That experience was probably the most favorable I've had on a mac as compared to the PC based experience. Otherwise, I consider it a wash thus far. The one thing I do like in theory but have yet to try, is the bootcamp/VMWare/Parallels option that will allow the macbook to become a windows machine as well....

11-13-2007, 11:52 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Donald Quote
In marketing history, Apple's push to introduce new technologies and processes in the colleges and universities was brilliant. It succeeded because they got the right package, hardware and software, and although in the visual design field there is no difference now between platforms' performance, Apple's legacy is pervasive, helped by continuing the same marketing practice, long since abandoned by IBM.
Actually one of the reasons Macs have lost a lot of momentum in the design field was due to the fact that Mr. jobs decided to stop giving much of an educational discount back around 1997-1998. He figured apple owned the educational market. He was very, very wrong. Then lots of new users were forced to discover that the apps they wanted worked just as well on windows, if not better when you could purchase a machine with more ram and HD for the same dollar.

Getting more than the $100 token discount form them is still a huge PITA.

Most of their momentum these days is because print shops still prefer them. Mainly because they already have an investment, but also because they have a better take on color management than windows. That momentum is compounded by a history of file incompatibility between the two platforms that just isn't true anymore. (although print houses that screw up still like to lie and tell you that's the cause). However, the whole PC market is sort of trending towarsds laptop sales. With their backlight management, I'm not sure how well you can trust any color calibration on one of them while still retaining better pow4er optimization. So they may start losing that too. Not to mention a lot of printhouses are moving to printers as one giant device with the computing built in and pdfs as the documetn standard rather than asking you for the illustrator/quark/in design/etc file.

In corporate design departments, there is sort of a catch-22. Everyone thinks they need Macs, erroniously, and they get a bad rep because most of their desktop support skills and technologies are wiondows-centric.

Heck, where I work we finally went back to apple hardware in our labs after a long time phasing it out. We run windows on them, they are only there because apple finally agreed to give us an attractive deal while dell was being stupid and denying they stuck us with a couple thousand PCs with defective power supplies.

I work in educational IT at auniversity, my wife does professional design. She hates macs with a passion and uses an XP box for any work at home. I use an XP box for my pthography stuff. At work i use vista, OS x, linux, and solaris.

I kow a couple of professiona photographers. Both use XP for their setups. Most of them DON'T use any adobe products in their standard work pipeline. Mainly because they work on large volume, and need 95%+ of the stuff to be done right in the camera and 95%+ of their work doesn't get any serious post processing unless it is going to a competition or the client pays extra for it. Neither were on the bleeding edge of digital photography, so they didn't HAVE to go mac at any point, so they went with what was most cost effective.
11-13-2007, 12:09 PM   #9
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curious what you define as a huge PITA for the rebates. I have had 2 recent experiences with rebates/refunds from apple, both of which are among the best/quickest I've had.

I bought the mac with the free ipod rebate at the very end of august. less than 6 weeks later, the rebate was cashed.
with the refund, that was with my iphone. I called them up because i had purchased it within the timeframe allowed for price protection, and that same day had the difference credited back to my account.

certainly no worse, and generally a lot better than most. including the proactive notification of rebate status.

I do agree with the XP statement though. I think I was looking for validation that I wasn't completely nuts. I got the macbook expecting to be floored by how neat it was, and all things considered, there isnt much that blows me away on that, that makes me say "no more XP, no more PCs".
11-13-2007, 06:37 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by jmdeegan Quote
Curious if someone cares to really explain the reasoning why macs have always seemed to be so much more popular with the photographer crowd? (snip)

Macs seem more popular because many Mac users never miss an opportunity to evangelize the Mac, even creating opportunities where none exist. However, the reality is that the Mac is not more popular in any market, including photography. Don't believe me? Create a poll in this forum asking members which platform they use. Any Mac user here can prove me wrong by doing the same. I suspect the results will show PC users outnumbering Mac users by at least 10 to 1, perhaps even 20 to 1. And, since all here use graphics software at some level to edit the images created by their cameras, that PC dominance also includes graphics editing. I suspect that same PC dominance also extends into the publishing industry as well.

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11-13-2007, 07:03 PM   #11
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Just happens that the photo mags seem to be good at putting forward that bias. It was just a question, really.

If I do keep the mac, I'll probably wind up running bootcamp or parallels to run my win version of photoshop elements....
11-14-2007, 01:24 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by jmdeegan Quote
curious what you define as a huge PITA for the rebates. I have had 2 recent experiences with rebates/refunds from apple, both of which are among the best/quickest I've had.
Agreed. All my wife has to do to get an educational discount is show an official school ID. There are rules like the limit on one desktop per year (IIRC?), but at least there is no nasty rebate form that has to be filled out and mailed to a third party rebate house along with a bunch of UPC codes that might not even be the correct ones (like Pentax unforunately)...
11-14-2007, 02:16 AM   #13
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Mac’s are very good machines – let’s just get that out of the way first. Second, I do not have a Mac, nor have I ever owned anything made by Apple (nope – no iPod either).

Apple has the unique spot in the desktop computing world of having it all – they own the hardware, OS and most of the software. The basic truth is that Apple’s ex-employee’s are closely linked with the so-called photographic tools. The newly ex-head guy at Adobe is an ex-Apple engineer – now just who do you think he is going to work closely with – MS, Linux or Apple? The originators of Adobe worked with Apple from day one, MS was always a second choice – in part due to the involvement of IBM (before Windows 85 and NT 3.0 – remember OS/2? What a mess), Apple was the supporter of the underdog, how about the Newton or Lisa, who gave Apple 125 Million USD to keep their head above water? (Hint MS) Remember the 84 commercial during the super bowl? That was all about IBM not MS. The Mac’s success was partly due to Excel and Word (MS products made for the original Mac) without Excel and Word the Mac would have been an also ran.

Apple has been the master of the User Interface (UI), they stole the idea for a Graphic UI from Xerox, and they sued MS over the use of a trash can – and lost. The iPhone is a SmartPhone with a really cool UI and an iPod built in. Very cool, but not very innovative. I have been able to play mp3’s on my iPaq since 2000, but I have not seen fit to make it a phone – besides I hate cell phones – I carry one because my employer requires me to carry one around. My personal cell phone has less than 4.000 minutes on it since 2000, my wife hangs up her cell phone by turning the d*mn thing off.

I have seen the latest in the Mac OS and the UI is very cool. The hardware is robust – but you have one and only one choice on where to buy it. MS has had to tweak the OS to run on hardware that is the definition of variable, while if you buy a Mac – the hardware is controlled to the extreme. Meanwhile the pinheads that dis MS always talk about Vista not supporting this or that – while with the Intel Mac’s – they are the third generation of processors from 3 different companies that Apple has chosen to use. MS has always supported Intel and its clones (hint AMD).

Mac’s and Apple present a very intriguing alternative to MS and Intel based PC’s. I think that as more people look to alternates to MS and Linux takes it’s toll, that Mac’s will suffer more the Windows. I have worked for two companies that have looked at the cost of moving from MS/Windows to other platforms. It just costs too much to change – when I worked for the Airplane Company out here in the NW (no names now) we looked at moving all the desktops to UNIX X-Terms. The cost of converting all the local databases/memos/documents from PC/Windows to some application readable by UNIX would have cost more than the company was worth. (Remember, aircraft documentation needs to be accessible for the life of the airframe – 30+ years or more – think 707-737 been around since 1958) In the company I work for now, we were having issues with coming up with a global architecture and secure logons. Solved by AD/LDAP – now how would you do that with Apple? If I am incorrect – please tell me about the global company that has 100,000+ employees that is using Apple’s enterprise solution.

Mac’s are very nice machines – but show me what you can do on a Mac that I can not do on a PC and I do not mean the little toys (features) build into the OS.

The Elitist – formerly known as PDL
11-15-2007, 08:07 AM   #14
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Ok, I am going to chime in here. I own both a Mac and a PC. I do not claim to have more than a cursory knowledge of how either system "works" on the inside. All I know, is that I am much more productive on a Mac than a PC. And, it has nothing to do with being able to do certain things on my mac that I can't do on my PC. With the right software, my PC can do all the things that my Mac can do. What it comes down to is maintenance time. Let me chart it for you. I will outline the amount of time spent on my Windows machine per month doing routine maintenance, and the amount of time per month I spend on routine mainenance on my Mac....

Windows. (times are approximate.)
1. Defrag hard drive--once a month--3 hours
2. Virus Scan--once a week--2hours
3. Adware scan---once a week--30 minutes
4. Spyware Scan--once a week--30 minutes
5. Registry Clean (to get rid of stuff that windows uninstaller can't seem to find when it uninstalls/deletes a file)--once a week--15 minutes

I am probably forgetting something, but just with the basic 5 I have listed, I count 16 hours a month that my windows machine spends cleaning junk off my hard drive. And, don't tell me these things aren't needed. Rare is the week when these programs don't find numerous issues, and if I skip a week on any of these, I immediately begin to notice slow downs in productivity and machine speed. Now for maintenance on my Mac...

ummm, give me a minute....ummm....nope, can't remember the last time I had to do anything to my Mac.

Again, I am aware that there really isn't anything you can do on a Mac that you can't do on a PC. My Mac just (at least to me) seems to do it all with much less headache and frustration. I am not interested in why my Mac isn't as suseptible to all the Windows problems. I am interested in getting work done, and my Mac simply allows me to get more done in less time.

Now, let the flaming begin...
11-15-2007, 08:56 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by fletcherkane Quote
(snip) I will outline the amount of time spent on my Windows machine per month doing routine maintenance, and the amount of time per month I spend on routine mainenance on my Mac....

Windows. (times are approximate.)
1. Defrag hard drive--once a month--3 hours
2. Virus Scan--once a week--2hours
3. Adware scan---once a week--30 minutes
4. Spyware Scan--once a week--30 minutes
5. Registry Clean (to get rid of stuff that windows uninstaller can't seem to find when it uninstalls/deletes a file)--once a week--15 minutes

(snip) Now for maintenance on my Mac... (snip) ummm, give me a minute....ummm....nope, can't remember the last time I had to do anything to my Mac. (snip)

Right. And everyone who honestly believes a Mac hard disk never needs defragmentation, or the Mac never gets a virus, or adware, or spyware, raise your hand. Didn't think so. Even Apple wouldn't make that claim.

stewart
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